What to do about early bud break?

Lars Grimm

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This is really the heart of it. Don't be overzealous in trying to protect trees from temperatures that are normal for them. Save these extra measures for plants that are in a cooler zone than they are used to or plants from cuttings or layers that are not quite ready for the real world. Everything else leave outside. Mulching or a frost blanket at the most is more than sufficient and many plants can just stay on the bench all winter if suited to your zone. The only thing in my coldframe are new young maples from the west coast, and borderline plants like crepe myrtle. My coldframe is never closed unless it is going to be in the lower twenty's or below. It is wide open the rest of the time. It is also in the shade.

This all makes sense and I appreciate the candid feedback from everyone. I think the hesitation I feel, and I know others feel, is that it is hard to test the limits. You can try to scale back watering or tweak fertilizer and see the results, but if you don't give appropriate winter protection you won't know for potentially months and the tree might completely die or lose all its leaves. In my well intentioned efforts I think I have definitely over coddled some of my trees.
 
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sorce

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is that it is hard to test the limits

Unless we don't care about the material.

That's where I come in.

More importantly, identifying the chain of events that led us "into the garage" in the first place.

The way it MOSTLY is....

Guy starts out, hacks tree.
Hacked tree dies over winter.
Next year dudes hacks another tree.
"Protects" it in his garage.
Tree lives thru Winter.

Dude associates garage with tree health.

That pattern lasts indefinitely, he no longer worries about testing the limits.

In that time dude realizes what it takes to keep a tree alive. Health.

He begins keeping "healthy" trees in his "safe" garage zone.

Uh-oh. These trees that didn't have anything when hacked have energy now. So much energy in fact, a little "garage warmth" has them opening up.

The longer we spent associating garage with "safe", the harder it becomes to realize that the trees will be healthier outside....when they are healthy!

Again I say.....

All garages are not the same. Hell, some are sheds. Ahem!

Some are built over ground that is warm, some are insulated, some are overheated.

Some provide appropriate protection.

Some do not.

When in doubt...leave em out.

Why?

Because any tree so hacked, it will die outside, doesn't deserve to be a bonsai, and frankly, we don't deserve to see it live.

Health first.
Health always.
Design first.
Design always.

That hacked shit ain't Never...ever ever ever...lol!

Let it die!

Next!

Sorce
 

Paradox

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Truth to contradict the BS in the previous post

Just took this picture. Some of these trees have spent the last 5+ winters in this attached garage. All are healthy.

I have trees that were in this garage as far back as 6-8 years ago but now spend the winter in the cold frame because I ran out of room in the garage.

Do what works for you and your trees

20200114_192826.jpg


I'm sure my ficus and Brazilian rain trees would do much better outside in NY than inside my basement all winter. 🤔
 

sorce

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The BS you didn't even read?

Did you test all the limits before coming to your conclusion to use the garage?

Or did you get the idea somewhere else?

Do you feel lucky YOUR garage worked for you or did you do extensive research to ensure success?

For a scientist...
Well...
I'll allow the answer first.

Go ahead, combat and be too good to answer.

Read much?

Sorce
 

sorce

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Not humble enough to admit this thread proves the whole old argument wrong?

Grow up.

Read.

Sorce
 

Orion_metalhead

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I would imagine, as has been mentioned, that any significant cold protection is unwarranted in north carolina. I would simply leave them heeled into mulch or finished compost out of the sun all winter.

For now, I would consider building a cheap double poly tunnel for trees budding out only. This should raise the temperatures within to that of a climate 3 zones warmer (ie: 8 to 11, or 5 to 8) and safely pull your budding trees through. I would break down your heater in the shed and, after confirming nothing else has broken dormancy, get them outside into a better over wintering setup.

Hope your trees pull through.
 

Paradox

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Not humble enough to admit this thread proves the whole old argument wrong?

Grow up.

Read.

Sorce


I really hit a nerve huh? You have to resort to insulting me now, because I call you out on your crap instead of kowtow and laud you the Lord of Bonsai?

My garage works and works just fine.
I used it because its all I had at the time, and a lot of very successful bonsai keepers keep thier plants in garages, barns, sheds or other structures for decades with success.

This is the first bonsai tree I ever purchased.
This tree has been in my garage every winter since 2011. Thats 8-9 years.
*Gasp* I know its a juniper, it needs to be outside !!!!
Its still alive and very healthy, growing like a weed.
 

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Lars Grimm

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I would imagine, as has been mentioned, that any significant cold protection is unwarranted in north carolina. I would simply leave them heeled into mulch or finished compost out of the sun all winter.

For now, I would consider building a cheap double poly tunnel for trees budding out only. This should raise the temperatures within to that of a climate 3 zones warmer (ie: 8 to 11, or 5 to 8) and safely pull your budding trees through. I would break down your heater in the shed and, after confirming nothing else has broken dormancy, get them outside into a better over wintering setup.

Hope your trees pull through.

I've toyed with building a poly tunnel in the past. It is only a small number of trees, so I think I can do the back and forth shuffle between the shed overnight and benches during the day for the ones that have budded as needed based on the weather. All the other trees have moved out though.
 

sorce

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really hit a nerve huh?

The one amused by lunacy.

Insult?

What did I call you, Lucky? Oooooooo.
That's a nerve hitter!

......

When you'd go out to find fish....
You just go anywhere? Or are you led by something?

That "BS" was merely a lead to an understanding.

Why does that hurt you so much?

Sorce
 

Paradox

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The one amused by lunacy.

Insult?

What did I call you, Lucky? Oooooooo.
That's a nerve hitter!

......

When you'd go out to find fish....
You just go anywhere? Or are you led by something?

That "BS" was merely a lead to an understanding.

Why does that hurt you so much?

Sorce

Except it's not luck sorce, that's a fallacy you've made up in your head to justify your opinion as fact
 

sorce

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My garage works and works just fine.
I used it because its all I had at the time,

Luck then.

By definition.

What if all you had was no garage?

Or a garage too moldy?

Luck see. No research. No limit testing.

Luck.

Sorce
 

sorce

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Now that we've explored it.

I did make it up.

It's NOT a fallacy.

Sorce
 

Orion_metalhead

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I've toyed with building a poly tunnel in the past. It is only a small number of trees, so I think I can do the back and forth shuffle between the shed overnight and benches during the day for the ones that have budded as needed based on the weather. All the other trees have moved out though.

Just depends on how much you want to leave to chance... an unexpected cold night, not being able to be home to move em. Just things to think about. You should be able to make a poly tunnel for about $50.
 

leatherback

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Just depends on how much you want to leave to chance... an unexpected cold night, not being able to be home to move em.
Challenge though is.. What if yoru trees are on edge of waking up. And the added protection makes them wake up earlier. Did you then protect, or hurt the tree?
 

Paradox

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Luck then.

By definition.

What if all you had was no garage?

Or a garage too moldy?

Luck see. No research. No limit testing.

Luck.

Sorce

Nope, I talked to people that had kept bonsai for a long time and listened to what they said and their experience . How else is someone new supposed to start to get a handle on over wintering? By asking those that have done it and trying what is available to them. That is what I did.

I've been keeping trees in there for 8-9 years so clearly it works. There is your testing and experience. I also keep trees in a cold frame, more testing and experience.

Unlike you, I am not hung up on absolutes and saying it is the only way.

A garage is not the only way, but it is ONE way that CAN work very well. That is what I am saying.

But with everything in bonsai, it depends.
What works for one person may not work for another. You are telling people to not even try it, just put them outside, which is what is am objecting to.

Some trees will not live outside in winter in some areas, no matter how much you wish them to. My ficus and Brazilian rain trees WILL NOT live outside under mulch in New York in winter. They live in my basement under lights with no exposure to sun, wind, fresh air whatsoever except in summer. Hell, even in Florida, growers put BRT inside on nights it gets too cold.

Japanese black pines will not survive buried under snow in northern Michigan. Some Ilex will also die if they are exposed to too much cold.

So again, people should look at ALL the options and should do what works for them and their trees, their location, climate and situation, whether that is a shed, garage, barn, cold frame or buried under mulch.

THAT is what I am saying.
 

eryk2kartman

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Unless we don't care about the material.

That's where I come in.

More importantly, identifying the chain of events that led us "into the garage" in the first place.

The way it MOSTLY is....

Guy starts out, hacks tree.
Hacked tree dies over winter.
Next year dudes hacks another tree.
"Protects" it in his garage.
Tree lives thru Winter.

Dude associates garage with tree health.

That pattern lasts indefinitely, he no longer worries about testing the limits.

In that time dude realizes what it takes to keep a tree alive. Health.

He begins keeping "healthy" trees in his "safe" garage zone.

Uh-oh. These trees that didn't have anything when hacked have energy now. So much energy in fact, a little "garage warmth" has them opening up.

The longer we spent associating garage with "safe", the harder it becomes to realize that the trees will be healthier outside....when they are healthy!

Again I say.....

All garages are not the same. Hell, some are sheds. Ahem!

Some are built over ground that is warm, some are insulated, some are overheated.

Some provide appropriate protection.

Some do not.

When in doubt...leave em out.

Why?

Because any tree so hacked, it will die outside, doesn't deserve to be a bonsai, and frankly, we don't deserve to see it live.

Health first.
Health always.
Design first.
Design always.

That hacked shit ain't Never...ever ever ever...lol!

Let it die!

Next!

Sorce
:)
@sorce - i think that is your longest post ever :D

but in the subject - its very obvious that you cant leave tropicals such Ficus or others in our climate zones just outside, that is common sense as they are tropical plants, however as far as i know Ficus can stand the frost till certain level.
I left all my trees outside, let the nature do the job, i mean all, seedling, cuttings etc, i cant see any problems with them.
in my opinion- if the trees are from your climate zone, they should do just fine as they are in the winter.
They starting to wake up now, i even repotted one, that went into the greenhouse for now, but i will not try to stop them from waking up, i will let the be........
 

WNC Bonsai

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Now I can see emerald green in some of my American larch buds. The Japanese larch are totally ignoring it for now though. Surprisingly none of my maples are budding and they are usually the first to go. We had this same weather pattern a couple years ago in February when I was able to collect trees in the mountains at over 5000’. May you live in interesting times!
 
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