GRAY OAK (QUERCUS GRISEA)

Potawatomi13

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Fair question. My approach is informed by trusted sources such as @markyscott and @Lars Grimm reporting good success with rather aggressive root work. If anything my approach, by comparison, seems a lot more "gentle". I think if I was doing a full on repotting every year, cleaning the roots etc it would be a different story altogether and I don't think advisable. But I am just pushing back the rootball while leaving most of it intact. My planned root work schedule depends of course on how the tree does and responds. I am seeing now the tree is pushing nicely. A good sign!

Thank you:).
 

Lars Grimm

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Fair question. My approach is informed by trusted sources such as @markyscott and @Lars Grimm reporting good success with rather aggressive root work. If anything my approach, by comparison, seems a lot more "gentle". I think if I was doing a full on repotting every year, cleaning the roots etc it would be a different story altogether and I don't think advisable. But I am just pushing back the rootball while leaving most of it intact. My planned root work schedule depends of course on how the tree does and responds. I am seeing now the tree is pushing nicely. A good sign!

I think there is a difference between removing a large tap root that has few feeder roots on the end of it and the traditional root work that reworks many fine feeder roots. Removing heavy tap roots has slowed down the spring push slightly, but that is the only knock on effect I have seen.
 

Potawatomi13

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I think there is a difference between removing a large tap root that has few feeder roots on the end of it and the traditional root work that reworks many fine feeder roots. Removing heavy tap roots has slowed down the spring push slightly, but that is the only knock on effect I have seen.

And thank you;).
 

MACH5

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Early summer update. With a little help I was able to bring it into my studio for some work. Wired applied in early spring was removed as it was biting in and some branches rewired once again. The tree was also thinned out and most shoots growing up or down were cut off. About three weeks ago I cut back most of the shoots down to two lateral nodes. Notice how I am saying two and not one since oaks have an alternating leaf pattern so in order to ramify them you must cut back leaving at least two nodes. With Japanese maples we can cut back to just one node since it has an opposite leaf pattern.

A few things I'd like to share about this species based on my experience:

  • Despite many coming from semi-arid areas, as bonsai, they love water. Water well during the growing season. Keep it somewhat dry in the winter months.
  • They can be successfully grown in colder climates but need some degree of protection. I am unsure as to how cold this tree can be exposed to before it has any adverse effects.
  • Cutting back after leaves have hardened will almost guarantee a very strong second flush. Could very possibly even be encouraged to push a third flush.
  • Should be placed in full sun through the entire growing season with little to no need of shade cloth. They love hot weather and direct sun!
  • No autumn color to speak of. Leaves will just brown out and either fall or stay on the tree in colder climates.
  • No pests or fungus of any significance.
  • Shoots tend to have nodes that face up, down and sideways. So when cutting back look to leave two lateral nodes.
  • Branches/shoots thicken and develop very quickly! Depending, this could be advantageous or a detriment.
  • I highly recommend wiring in late winter or early spring and not in the fall. These oaks have a tendency to drop small branches rather easily. Any damage or cracks from the wiring process will further increase this propensity.

Here is the tree a couple of days ago after the work. It is pushing a strong second flush and will be left to grow. I have already pinched some areas to keep them from thickening too much. Other shoots will be allow to elongate as needed.

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justBonsai

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Early summer update. With a little help I was able to bring it into my studio for some work. Wired applied in early spring was removed as it was biting in and some branches rewired once again. The tree was also thinned out and most shoots growing up or down were cut off. About three weeks ago I cut back most of the shoots down to two lateral nodes. Notice how I am saying two and not one since oaks have an alternating leaf pattern so in order to ramify them you must cut back leaving at least two nodes. With Japanese maples we can cut back to just one node since it has an opposite leaf pattern.

A few things I'd like to share about this species based on my experience:

  • Despite many coming from semi-arid areas, as bonsai, they love water. Water well during the growing season. Keep it somewhat dry in the winter months.
  • They can be successfully grown in colder climates but need some degree of protection. I am unsure as to how cold this tree can be exposed to before it has any adverse effects.
  • Cutting back after leaves have hardened will almost guarantee a very strong second flush. Could very possibly even be encouraged to push a third flush.
  • Should be placed in full sun through the entire growing season with little to no need of shade cloth. They love hot weather and direct sun!
  • No autumn color to speak of. Leaves will just brown out and either fall or stay on the tree in colder climates.
  • No pests or fungus of any significance.
  • Shoots tend to have nodes that face up, down and sideways. So when cutting back look to leave two lateral nodes.
  • Branches/shoots thicken and develop very quickly! Depending, this could be advantageous or a detriment.
  • I highly recommend wiring in late winter or early spring and not in the fall. These oaks have a tendency to drop small branches rather easily. Any damage or cracks from the wiring process will further increase this propensity.

Here is the tree a couple of days ago after the work. It is pushing a strong second flush and will be left to grow. I have already pinched some areas to keep them from thickening too much. Other shoots will be allow to elongate as needed.

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This looks great Sergio! I'm happy that this oak was able to thrive in your climate.
 

MACH5

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This looks great Sergio! I'm happy that this oak was able to thrive in your climate.


Hi Julian! Thanks, I know you took part in helping this tree along its long journey from New Mexico to New Jersey a few years back. Thus far seems to be able to do really well even far outside its natural range.
 

justBonsai

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Hi Julian! Thanks, I know you took part in helping this tree along its long journey from New Mexico to New Jersey a few years back. Thus far seems to be able to do really well even far outside its natural range.
Only saw it along its journey as it passed through Chicago! Great to see it progress. Super cool oak!
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Looking really good Serg. The bark is impressive, and so are the trunk lines. It would be nice to see more oaks as bonsai since they’re such a common tree here. I have read they’re not as common because they don’t do well in pots over time...? It will be interesting to see what you learn from keeping this one that will help more people grow them.
 

rockm

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Early summer update. With a little help I was able to bring it into my studio for some work. Wired applied in early spring was removed as it was biting in and some branches rewired once again. The tree was also thinned out and most shoots growing up or down were cut off. About three weeks ago I cut back most of the shoots down to two lateral nodes. Notice how I am saying two and not one since oaks have an alternating leaf pattern so in order to ramify them you must cut back leaving at least two nodes. With Japanese maples we can cut back to just one node since it has an opposite leaf pattern.

A few things I'd like to share about this species based on my experience:

  • Despite many coming from semi-arid areas, as bonsai, they love water. Water well during the growing season. Keep it somewhat dry in the winter months.
  • They can be successfully grown in colder climates but need some degree of protection. I am unsure as to how cold this tree can be exposed to before it has any adverse effects.
  • Cutting back after leaves have hardened will almost guarantee a very strong second flush. Could very possibly even be encouraged to push a third flush.
  • Should be placed in full sun through the entire growing season with little to no need of shade cloth. They love hot weather and direct sun!
  • No autumn color to speak of. Leaves will just brown out and either fall or stay on the tree in colder climates.
  • No pests or fungus of any significance.
  • Shoots tend to have nodes that face up, down and sideways. So when cutting back look to leave two lateral nodes.
  • Branches/shoots thicken and develop very quickly! Depending, this could be advantageous or a detriment.
  • I highly recommend wiring in late winter or early spring and not in the fall. These oaks have a tendency to drop small branches rather easily. Any damage or cracks from the wiring process will further increase this propensity.

Here is the tree a couple of days ago after the work. It is pushing a strong second flush and will be left to grow. I have already pinched some areas to keep them from thickening too much. Other shoots will be allow to elongate as needed.

View attachment 314462

View attachment 314463

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I agree with all of your observations. Mine has responded similarly I haven't been moving as quickly with mine. Wanted to see how it grew and adapted to my climate for a few years. I do have mine in a ceramic bonsai container, after a repotting and soil flush last year. It's on its second flush of growth also. Plan to hard prune and wire early next spring. They do tend to give up on some branching sometimes though.
 

rockm

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Looking really good Serg. The bark is impressive, and so are the trunk lines. It would be nice to see more oaks as bonsai since they’re such a common tree here. I have read they’re not as common because they don’t do well in pots over time...? It will be interesting to see what you learn from keeping this one that will help more people grow them.
FWIW, I guess it depends on the oak...I've had a live oak in a pot for 25 years. Stronger now than when I got it.
 
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MACH5

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Looking really good Serg. The bark is impressive, and so are the trunk lines. It would be nice to see more oaks as bonsai since they’re such a common tree here. I have read they’re not as common because they don’t do well in pots over time...? It will be interesting to see what you learn from keeping this one that will help more people grow them.

Thanks Bri! I agree and love to see more oaks. At least deciduous ones not the live oaks that seem to be much more common and fairly well documented as bonsai subjects. I have contacted Andy Smith and he said to me that he has collected quite few oaks of several different species but none have survived. Severing the tap root seems to be an issue. The gray oaks that Alvaro collects are probably all coming from shallow pockets.

I will keep at it. I am hoping that it will continue to perform as well as it has. I had many doubts but becoming much more confident that this one is an excellent bonsai subject.
 

MACH5

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I agree with all of your observations. Mine has responded similarly I haven't been moving as quickly with mine. Wanted to see how it grew and adapted to my climate for a few years. I do have mine in a ceramic bonsai container, after a repotting and soil flush last year. It's on its second flush of growth also. Plan to hard prune and wire early next spring. They do tend to give up on some branching sometimes though.


Good to know Mark. I was hoping to crosscheck my experiences with yours as I believe you've had your oak longer than I have. Glad yours is also doing well. And yes, mine has dropped a few small branches through the winter. It is annoying but part of the game it seems. That's why I don't even touch it until springtime.
 

ConorDash

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My oak, which is Quercus Faginea (Portuguese) sits in our winter happily, no protection. Down to coldest of -8 perhaps, with wind perhaps could feel somewhat colder and its fine. Unsure if thats of any help to you, as you are looking in to how cold they can withstand.

May I ask.. its always been the normal "rules" to remove upwards and downwards shoots. Thinking naturalistic or "abstract" (as you used when talking to Ryan recently ;) ), I can fully understand removing the downward growing shoots, they eventually will die anyway, as they are shaded out. But the upward growing ones; In my mind, I think surely using the upward ones and wiring off in a direction (so it is not bolt upright) would be more natural? Would also help to not have those very horizontal flat foliage pads.
Obviously there are other ways of helping avoid that flat horizontal problem, as you show quite clearly on this beast of a tree, but why the blanket/general removal of all upward shoots? Where is the hole in my theory? :)

Also thank you for the big post with info on the Oak, the tips when growing it, very helpful!
 

rockm

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Good to know Mark. I was hoping to crosscheck my experiences with yours as I believe you've had your oak longer than I have. Glad yours is also doing well. And yes, mine has dropped a few small branches through the winter. It is annoying but part of the game it seems. That's why I don't even touch it until springtime.
It dropped two large back branches after the first winter here:eek: It's pushing new thicker shoots though. Don't know why it dropped them...but they joined a lot of other very old branch stumps that were already present, so it is indeed part of the picture working with them.

FWIW, I have overwintered it under just mulch in the backyard. It doesn't seem to mind.

Like you said, it does like water. Having lived in the desert a while back, that's not uncommon for deciduous trees there. Seeing cottonwood, oak and others in the landscape means there is water underneath them...
 

rockm

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My oak, which is Quercus Faginea (Portuguese) sits in our winter happily, no protection. Down to coldest of -8 perhaps, with wind perhaps could feel somewhat colder and its fine. Unsure if thats of any help to you, as you are looking in to how cold they can withstand.

May I ask.. its always been the normal "rules" to remove upwards and downwards shoots. Thinking naturalistic or "abstract" (as you used when talking to Ryan recently ;) ), I can fully understand removing the downward growing shoots, they eventually will die anyway, as they are shaded out. But the upward growing ones; In my mind, I think surely using the upward ones and wiring off in a direction (so it is not bolt upright) would be more natural? Would also help to not have those very horizontal flat foliage pads.
Obviously there are other ways of helping avoid that flat horizontal problem, as you show quite clearly on this beast of a tree, but why the blanket/general removal of all upward shoots? Where is the hole in my theory? :)

Also thank you for the big post with info on the Oak, the tips when growing it, very helpful!
Keep in mind this is a high desert species from Arizona, New Mexico and West Texas. I have no idea if what works for it is going to work for a Portuguese oak...
 

ConorDash

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Keep in mind this is a high desert species from Arizona, New Mexico and West Texas. I have no idea if what works for it is going to work for a Portuguese oak...

Of course, I wouldn’t draw equivalents, I respect they are very different but at the very least, both oaks. Was just commenting on what little experience I had.
I wouldn’t follow advice given on this oak, for mine, without thinking more :)
 

MACH5

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May I ask.. its always been the normal "rules" to remove upwards and downwards shoots. Thinking naturalistic or "abstract" (as you used when talking to Ryan recently ;) ), I can fully understand removing the downward growing shoots, they eventually will die anyway, as they are shaded out. But the upward growing ones; In my mind, I think surely using the upward ones and wiring off in a direction (so it is not bolt upright) would be more natural? Would also help to not have those very horizontal flat foliage pads.
Obviously there are other ways of helping avoid that flat horizontal problem, as you show quite clearly on this beast of a tree, but why the blanket/general removal of all upward shoots? Where is the hole in my theory? :)

Conor good question. Yes, you don't want to make your branches flat. I mentioned removing all upwards and downwards shoots. This was a general note. Indeed sometimes I do use upward facing shoots and even those that point down depending on the situation. However, for the most part I do cut off those that grow straight up never mind the bottom ones. Even if I was to wire those, they always end up looking rather funny to me. So, my approach, generally speaking, is to use a sideways facing shoot that I will wire and as it develops into a branch I "float" it (at least a portion of it) over top of the main branch structure to give it volume and make it look more natural. Cup your hands slightly and put them together side by side. Then rotate one over the other. That's the basic idea. Just your top hand should never be as long as your bottom one!
 

PiñonJ

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I have contacted Andy Smith and he said to me that he has collected quite few oaks of several different species but none have survived. Severing the tap root seems to be an issue.
Collecting desert species is a bitch. They send their roots deep for more reliable water. I’ve collected three oaks (two Gambels and a Wavy Leaf, which is a Gambel hybrid). Only one survived - barely! In your area I’d be more concerned about hot, humid summers, or cold, wet springs than about cold winters. The tree looks great!
 
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