The importance of proper handwriting

MichaelS said:

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What exactly is an ''expert'' though. Some of these people are still in their thirties. It takes at least that amount of time to figure out what a bonsai even is - or means. Maybe expert technicians not bonsai experts.

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Here’s a counter example: Bjorn Bjorholm is a bonsai expert and is in his 30s.

music~maker said:

Oh boy, is this going to be another one of those arbitrarily and narrowly defineds term like "art" for you?

Let's just nip this one in the bud. Age doesn't necessarily have any relationship to level of expertise whatsoever. It certainly can be an indicator, but the amount of time per day/week/month/year spent on something, the amount of overall effort, the quality of that effort, quality of practice, quality and availability of mentorship, natural aptitude, etc, etc, etc, etc, all play into somebody's level of expertise.

And if you want to claim that a certain number of years are required, that's fine (though the specific number would clearly be debatable and vary by person), but number of years doing something would certainly be more relevant than a person's age. Some people get involved in things very young, and are easily as good as the adults by the time they're in their early teens. Is that person at 30 really not going to be considered an expert? Some people spend 25 years doing something, but essentially repeat the same year over and over again. Could they be considered an expert at anything but mediocrity? Doubtful. I've seen plenty of real-world situations where a person with 4-5 years of highly trained experience easily bests the 25-year weekend warrior.

But I kind of suspect what you're really getting at is your arbitrarily high bar for the term "artist", and trying to suck us back into another technician vs. artist debate.

How about we cut to the chase, shall we? The term "bonsai expert", as used in this thread, is almost certainly the more broadly defined term that most people here would use to label the people on that list. It refers to those who have significant expertise and accomplishments in the field, a high amount of breadth and depth in their skill set, and who are probably also in the role of "teacher" at the stage they're at. And yes, most people here would probably also call them "artists" as well.

Gray areas, my friend, gray areas. Life is full of them. =)

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I don't know how long and how you have been around bonsai AND bonsai people but let me say this. It takes a certain amount of time to figure out in your own head what and why you are doing something. That's a given (unless you are some kind of kid genius.- I know they do exist). In the case of bonsai I used thirty years as a rough estimate on how long it took me. By that I mean 10 years to learn how to water, 10 years to learn how to shape something, and ten years to understand why you are doing it and what it means to you. That does not mean however that everyone will be able to understand what they are doing by the end of 30 years. Some might never even think of that part and just plod along in an unthinking blind manner. I know plenty who do not question what they do their whole lives. And I see plenty of examples of their work - even from Japanese veterans. But yes, 30 years is a nice round figure. It might take twenty for some (I doubt it) and it might take 40 for another. Knowing how to wire has very little to do with bonsai. Knowing when NOT to wire has everything to do with bonsai. It has taken me those thirty years to see that me wiring a branch cannot compare to how nature shapes a branch and that that is the real meaning of bonsai. Whenever I see the word expert, artist, master, etc; I take it with a grain of salt and so should you. I really couldn't give 2 shits about technicians because they can teach nothing of much value. In fact, I have come to the realization that all demos, workshops, classes, lectures, forums, books, blogs and videos by the ''experts'' are just mainly entertainment.

Lorax7 said:

Here’s a counter example: Bjorn Bjorholm is a bonsai expert and is in his 30s.

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I can't comment on that at the moment.

Anthony said:

The Irish of the 70's train the same way, I was taught by the Irish.

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Well, that's something in your favor. ;-)

@Victorim ,

you are responding to something written.
The same for the tale of his friend.
Asthma.
Re-read what he wrote.

I have quite a few friends who have asthma.
What if this take of the poet is made up or embellished ?
Good Day
Anthony

* By the way I did write to his friend and he responded very
pleasantly.

MichaelS said:

In the case of bonsai I used thirty years as a rough estimate on how long it took me. By that I mean 10 years to learn how to water, 10 years to learn how to shape something, and ten years to understand why you are doing it and what it means to you.

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I do apologize, but the tendency to just write down the knowledge and experience that some people gain in a very short time .. It rubs me the wrong way. Taking 30 years to learn how to water, shape and understand the why of it all.. I would say: Learn thethree things simultanuusly, and you have already cut the learning curve to a third. Just because it took you such a long time to figure things out, that does not mean others could not do it more quickly though. Certainly if one spends 5/6 years full time (6AM-8PM, 7 days per week) working bonsai in a nursery under supervision of a bonsai expert, I would bet this person would have a much better understanding of bonsai than any of us poor saps sitting in our backyard tinkering along.


https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2016/03/expert/

And yes, that goes beyond just the mere techniques. If you look over the shoulder of an artist long enough, you do get a feel for the way they work, the things they see in rough material and the process invlved in getting to the next step. Then working alongside this artist and under their guidance brings this to you too. Whether you will be able to create a truely unique and universally accepted piece of genious yourself, that is a different matter. That is the part where talent comes to play. But creating very good trees at that point will come naturally; No need to be an artist to create good trees. It is the outstanding, mind-boggling trees that require a spark of inspiration that cannot be taught. But up to that point.. Practice & guidance, watching trees and watching the process, repeating under guidance will get you a long way towards really good trees, imho.

sparklemotion said:

I saw it differently. The teacher was bad for two reasons.

First, that he believed that penmanship was fundamental, even though great poetry can be typed.

Second, that he could not show his students why the supposed "fundamentals" were so vital.

I often see critiques of bonsai that call out "sloppy wiring." Unless a student knows why neat wiring is important, why would that critique matter to them?

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Wrong!
This teacher never got to the part were he could teach poetry (what he was there for), because the students missed the fundamentals, aka: proper writing and spelling, which you learn in elementary school.
But now days we don't give much importance to it. Why? Because we have the impression that we don't need it, even though if we are put in the situation to write down a simple letter many of us fail.
And again he was not there to teach writing and spelling, he was there to teach poetry (is like when you go drive a truck or a bus it is assumed that you already have the experience on a small car, the truck/bus instructor is not there to teach you the basics of driving, he is there to teach you the next level).
And there is another aspect, the wast majority of the students considered them "too good" to practice hand writing and spelling even thou they were terrible at it, but they wanted Poetry.

It tales time to gather experience, by yourself.
You can amass experience rapidly if you speak to informed heads.
Which allows you to self gather even more experience, and then if you want to,
share.

As to the Art part ------------- do you have something worth saying that will
stand the test of time ???????

Bonsai is great, because, you can do it in your backyard.

It is when you want to show or compete..............................................
Good Day
Anthony

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that handwriting and spelling are truly fundamentals of poetry.

The students here were adults, motivated to learn from a master. If he had even tried to explain the link between these fundamentals and the art he created, they would likely have listened. But, as this story was told, it seems he didn't even try.

This wasn't an apprenticeship, where the trainee is given menial work to do, but still allowed glimpses of the master at work. Nor was constructive feedback given about how to improve. The students here were never given the opportunity to learn anything.

The failure here belongs to the teacher. Who may well have been a master poet, but mastery does not necessarily include the ability to teach.

Raw meat thrown into the kennel.
Dogs barking.
Minds gathering down the funnel.
Lesson taking?

Frog croaking in a cloudy night.

Will the winds scatter and spill all the wanton wordy banter?

I wonder...




(You can PM me for a handwritten page, I was the one who wrote the names on the Xmas presents, that shows how good I am. $1.59 per line plus shipping)

JOKING! (had a couple of champagne bottles left and I'm wating for late-hours in the supermarket for new Year's Eve : 50% discount 1/2 hour before closing time ! )

AlainK said:

Raw meat thrown into the kennel.
Dogs barking.
Minds gathering down the funnel.
Lesson taking?

Frog croaking in a cloudy night.

Will the winds scatter and spill all the wanton wordy banter?

I wonder...




(You can PM me for a handwritten page, I was the one who wrote the names on the Xmas presents, that shows how good I am. $1.59 per line plus shipping)

JOKING! (had a couple of champagne bottles left and I'm wating for late-hours in the supermarket for new Year's Eve : 50% discount 1/2 hour before closing time ! )

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God invented the fly,
I don't know why.

Now THAT'S poetry.

What's it got to do with bonsai Walter?

For twisted trees

I think I will never see
A poem as lovely as a tree .

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/poems/12744/trees

Heard of a man called Walter
Even met him in Versailles
Helped froggies understand Englisher
Last time I met a friend whose "I's"
He meant everyone.

MichaelS said:

Whenever I see the word expert, artist, master, etc; I take it with a grain of salt and so should you.

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Absolutely agreed on this point.

MichaelS said:

I really couldn't give 2 shits about technicians because they can teach nothing of much value. In fact, I have come to the realization that all demos, workshops, classes, lectures, forums, books, blogs and videos by the ''experts'' are just mainly entertainment.

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Less on board with this. Technicians can certainly teach technique, no? Like it or not, bonsai does in fact require a certain amount of technique, and learning said technique is useful, is it not? And while I agree that demos are mostly entertainment, the other forms you mentioned can be highly instructional. They are all ways for a person to transmit information and experience that they have to other people.

How else would they get this knowledge if not to learn from others? Is everyone to be 100% self-taught?

I'm mostly self-taught myself (about 22-23 years now), but I have pulled little bits and pieces of information to experiment with from all of the sources you have mentioned, and then some. No one place or person has all of the right answers, but these types of sources are certainly not without value, and are often more than simply entertainment.

I'm in the business of teaching people things for a living (not bonsai), and what I've learned from that is that often things that took somebody 10, 20, 30 years to learn can be taught to somebody in a much shorter time than that. It's still up to the student to take on that information, practice it, internalize it, and master it, but learning curves can be significantly shortened with proper training. I think there's always a higher level to get to, but there's clearly a stage where the student can become the teacher and teach the information back out to people.

And I do agree with you partly on the wiring thing. Knowing when NOT to wire is in fact truly important, but knowing when and how to wire is also quite important. Same thing with pruning vs. not pruning. Knowing when to just let something grow for another couple months vs. the effect you'll get if you prune it now. But again, I believe that these are things that can be taught. It might take longer to internalize those kinds of lessons since it requires a number of years watching something grow to really get it, but I do think it's possible for those learning curves to be shortened.

Bottom line: I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume somebody's skill level based solely on their age.

leatherback, post: 518480, member: 16946"]: Learn thethree things simultanuusly,

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Well I thought it would have been obvious that's what I meant. That is...10 years to learn the horticulture part, twenty to get the technique down to a reasonable point and thirty years until you actually look at what you are creating and maybe question it. In fact you never really learn how to water properly and you are always improving your technique.
Of course everyone is different.

music~maker said:

Bottom line: I think it's a bit presumptuous to assume somebody's skill level based solely on their age.

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Yeah wasn't really talking about skill. Talking more about wisdom.

Mr. Pall,

Thank you for sharing this experience. Our teachers can be so devastating. Someone can hone an edge into an icepick. Poetry is natural, not this way.

I don't see Walter's answer to his own question, and I don't think there were any guesses that just plainly state that the teacher was the only one hired, by the students, even if only indirectly, to teach poetry. His purview was teaching poetry. The students didn't owe him anything more than a willingness to learn poetry. He didn't deliver. If there had been a prerequisite of good handwriting, it should have been plainly stated beforehand. What passed for a teacher was someone who didn't have his priorities in order.

In days of old and night of bold before bonsai was invented

I ate my sup and drank my cup and went to bed contented

But now I fuss and must discuss this art until I’m disconcerted

And reject it all and have a ball and do stuff that’s perverted

This BS belongs in the Tea House!

Sorce