Should I keep this branch??

Zac chandanais · Dec 8, 2020

I have no idea what type of juniper this is because it was not labeled when I bought it but I need some styling advise. There were two main side branches and then a straight trunk that went to the moon. I Jinned the “top” and used the upper most side branch as my new apex. My question is weather or not to keep the bottom branch that is grown directly out the back of the tree (now positioned as a left lower branch) or use it as a sacrificial branch? I don’t feel that it works as it stands now since it seems very disconnected from the overall design, but I’m not sure if I should allow the tree to grow into it or just focus on my main branch moving forward. Thanks in advance for your input. I love hearing what everyone has to say. It helps SO much!
Cheers!

TN_Jim · Dec 8, 2020

I’d curve that joker beyond the elbow back up and around to the front then down -if you lose the branch you have the answer

Brian Van Fleet · Dec 8, 2020

It is distracting how it crosses behind the trunk as-is, so I would remove it. Eventually the next branch up on the left can fill the space.

Forsoothe! · Dec 8, 2020

I like what I see now, early in the game. I think I would make the upper branches a little shorter on the left side and a little longer on the right side. But I would caution that you want more than just my opinion which may stand alone in the end.

Japonicus · Dec 8, 2020

Zac chandanais said:
I have no idea what type of juniper this is

I'm sorry I cant put a name to it.

As for the top of the tree the longest branch on the left (pic below), just below the apex area
has good movement, but is a bar branch and oversized for the location and aspect
ratio with other nearby branches. It is also on the inside of a curve.
If you must, have to keep that branch for the end style, then the opposing one beside it
and the one below it I would remove. Both are bar branches. If you do that, then the one that
is overpowering the others, can be lowered into the lower void, and shortened drastically.
However I would focus on removing it after the tree recovers from the initial potting up.

In this picture ^ the entire design appears to be built on bar branches.

Zac chandanais said:
use it as a sacrificial branch

Perfect! But you have to let the foliage run run run on the sacrifice, it has been worked over.
If you were to attempt to change direction of that branch now after wiring it
you stand a greater risk of losing it from damage. In fact, so much foliage has been removed
(hopefully this work was done in Summer) that the juniper needs to rest all next year to recover.
Then consider initial potting up Spring 2022. Otherwise you could have potted it up this coming Spring.
I pretty much stop pruning on juniper by end of August, but early July is best for hard pruning in my area.
This gives time to recover, and provide enough foliage to withstand a Spring root insult.

I would focus on 2022. After recovery if it is strong enough, begin removing alternating branches
and lower the remaining ones into negative spaces with the branches sloping downwards rather than straight out like.

Zac chandanais · Dec 8, 2020

TN_Jim said:
-if you lose the branch you have the answer

I like your style

Zac chandanais · Dec 8, 2020

Japonicus said:
I'm sorry I cant put a name to it.

As for the top of the tree the longest branch on the left (pic below), just below the apex area
has good movement, but is a bar branch and oversized for the location and aspect
ratio with other nearby branches. It is also on the inside of a curve.
If you must, have to keep that branch for the end style, then the opposing one beside it
and the one below it I would remove. Both are bar branches. If you do that, then the one that
is overpowering the others, can be lowered into the lower void, and shortened drastically.
However I would focus on removing it after the tree recovers from the initial potting up.
View attachment 343483
In this picture ^ the entire design appears to be built on bar branches.

Perfect! But you have to let the foliage run run run on the sacrifice, it has been worked over.
If you were to attempt to change direction of that branch now after wiring it
you stand a greater risk of losing it from damage. In fact, so much foliage has been removed
(hopefully this work was done in Summer) that the juniper needs to rest all next year to recover.
Then consider initial potting up Spring 2022. Otherwise you could have potted it up this coming Spring.
I pretty much stop pruning on juniper by end of August, but early July is best for hard pruning in my area.
This gives time to recover, and provide enough foliage to withstand a Spring root insult.

I would focus on 2022. After recovery if it is strong enough, begin removing alternating branches
and lower the remaining ones into negative spaces with the branches sloping downwards rather than straight out I

Thank you SO much for taking so much time to share this with me. I am beyond grateful. I will re-read this several times I’m sure before it comes time to work on this tree again. I understand your points about all the bar branches. I’m going to be honest, I did not notice how many there were (my newb is showing). Your point about the large top left branch is a great one. Unfortunately, it is wrapped around and composes most of the back of the tree so I will have to see how the tree does over the next year and revisit that. I do agree with your observation however and will have to do something about all those bars. Having the self control to leave trees alone is something I am still working on lol. I suppose I’ll have to just keep buying more to keep me from overworking the ones I have

TN_Jim · Dec 8, 2020

Zac chandanais said:
I like your style

oh I’ll ruin a branch.
just completely forget it’s a living thing and reposition the wire again and again or beyond a limit...well that one snap did okay...
tree, can’t you see my vision!!?

.....said move to front but meant move into right of image. Perhaps could be done slowly if you see merit there. With the height to trunk and lack of taper and feminine perhaps such, a more artistic form rather than standard does seem fair game.

@Japonicus making much more sense to me here

Japonicus · Dec 8, 2020

1st the area I circled in red - foliage reminiscent of my Gold tipped juniper with that herring bone look.
Not a golden variety obviously, but certainly could be related.
Did a search and one plant that came up looking similar was a Sea of Gold, however my Sea of Green nothing like it.
Which also sports both juvenile and adult foliage, so I really don't know. I'll go out and look tomorrow.

Area circled in blue, I cannot determine if that foliage is coming from the above branch
or a 1st secondary branch where the blue arrow is. If that's the case

If it's from above branch, you might rethink my alternation process here. There's lots of time for that.
I'm not good at drawings but you get the idea. The branches on the right should come down at the same angle
as the ones on the left next time you wire it.
I think you're off to a good start on the trunk and should be proud of it in a few years.
Just get it vigorous before you work the roots, bushy.

Have to commend you on your wiring. A lot bigger in copper for that trunk though.
That said, the aluminum wire is obviously not putting the bend in the trunk at the fork
where you jinned it, so mostly that wire was just practice. Not bad.

Bonsai Wiring Essentials

Uncover professional secrets to wiring better, faster and more accurately in this FREE mini-class, and develop beautiful bonsai trees!

www.craftsy.com

Potawatomi13 · Dec 8, 2020

Excellent elimination of bar branches

!

Zac chandanais · Dec 9, 2020

Japonicus said:
View attachment 343513
1st the area I circled in red - foliage reminiscent of my Gold tipped juniper with that herring bone look.
Not a golden variety obviously, but certainly could be related.
Did a search and one plant that came up looking similar was a Sea of Gold, however my Sea of Green nothing like it.
Which also sports both juvenile and adult foliage, so I really don't know. I'll go out and look tomorrow.

Area circled in blue, I cannot determine if that foliage is coming from the above branch
or a 1st secondary branch where the blue arrow is. If that's the case
If it's from above branch, you might rethink my alternation process here. There's lots of time for that.
I'm not good at drawings but you get the idea. The branches on the right should come down at the same angle
as the ones on the left next time you wire it.
I think you're off to a good start on the trunk and should be proud of it in a few years.
Just get it vigorous before you work the roots, bushy.

Have to commend you on your wiring. A lot bigger in copper for that trunk though.
That said, the aluminum wire is obviously not putting the bend in the trunk at the fork
where you jinned it, so mostly that wire was just practice. Not bad.

Bonsai Wiring Essentials

Uncover professional secrets to wiring better, faster and more accurately in this FREE mini-class, and develop beautiful bonsai trees!

www.craftsy.com

Thank for the drawing. It helps a lot. Unfortunately that blue circled area is coming down from the top (overbearing) branch I believe but I’ll have to examine closer when I get home to be sure. I’m afraid, if I’m right, that I will be left with quite a void

. I do like your plan for the right side and will use this as a guide when the time comes and see what I end up with. I have paid as much attention to wiring in the past and it showed lol so I really tried to follow the rules this time so I appreciate your comment. Practice practice practice!

Gabler · Dec 9, 2020

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what kind of juniper it is. Taxonomy is nothing more than academically rigorous stereotyping. It gets you in the ballpark so you have a statistically probable answer to your questions, rather than an empirically correct answer. Pay attention to what your particular individual tree does and how it responds to training techniques, and you'll have a nice bonsai. Especially with all the weird cultivars and hybrids out there, there's a tremendous amount of variation within a species, anyway.

leatherback · Dec 9, 2020

Gabler said:
Taxonomy is nothing more than academically rigorous stereotyping

Forsoothe! · Dec 9, 2020

Hmmmm.... go to here...

thence here...

The top pads could be a tad smaller than here.

Gabler · Dec 9, 2020

leatherback said:

It's easy to conflate conceptual tools with reality. Categories are the hands and feet of the mind. They allow us to communicate with each other intelligibly—in other words, move ideas around. The way we each organize our perception of the world into categories varies, and different methods have different strengths and weaknesses. A foot with a high arch will help you run faster, but it's also more injury-prone. Grouping plants by genus and species helps to communicate across cultures and trace genetic lineage, but the classical herb/shrub/tree distinction is still a favorite in common parlance for a reason. It's a pragmantic categorization based on a plant's prominent features and usefulness to humans.

Japonicus · Dec 9, 2020

Forsoothe! said:
Hmmmm.... go to here...
View attachment 343553
thence here...
View attachment 343554
The top pads could be a tad smaller than here.

Your virtual much better than my drawing.
Still leaves a bar branch under that thicker upper branch and inside a curve in the trunk.
Thicker branch can come down at a steeper descent and growth controlled
allowing other branches to catch up by running, while keeping this thicker one controlled/restricted.

I like how you left the branch the thread is about, as it gains caliper the eventual jin will have better character possibilities.

@Zac chandanais this is what I'm talking about letting a plant regain strength prior to potting up.
Sorry, shooting into the Sun here the colours are off a bit.

These 2 pics same juniper (Gold lace) July 2019^

Same juniper today. I could/should have thinned it this year but it's none the worse for the wear.
Notice the right picture above 2019. I left interior foliage. I need to thin so that foliage doesn't die off
in favour of tip branches that are getting the Sun.
In fact, a junipers strength is its' foliage. What I'm getting at is to allow runners to show.
Notice the tips long runners. Some cultivars longer than others, but you know it's healthy.
Next July this one will be cut back, not potted. It doesn't need potting, that would slow it down.
Bottom left branch will continue to run to gain caliper there and at the trunk.

Again today shooting into the Sun. Not this yellow.
Wind blew it off the rail in a bonsai pot that busted.
Didn't have a good replacement pot and had to do an emergency repot into something, ground would work.
So I left it alone this year and if it's healthy in the spring with juicy new buds I might repot it yet again.
Have to wait and see. It's been slow this year, but it needs thinning and wiring too.

leatherback · Dec 9, 2020

Gabler said:
conflate conceptual tools with reality

So the idea that individual species do not normally interbreed, and that species that are closer in the classification are typically more similar does not present a reality for you?

Forsoothe! · Dec 9, 2020

I understand the objection to the bar branches, but in the real world we fill space, and make space, and choose which is where. This is a finished design and not intended to grow significantly in caliper and my use of the lowest branch is not as a sacrifice, it's a design feature and IMHO it's removal would leave a very ungainly tree. Removal of one of the top top 5 (as virtualized above) from either side would leave more empty space than I like. The two most significant parts of the tree are the two straight sections of the trunk. The more completely visible they are, the more they dominate the appearance, and in my view detract from the movement of the tree. Anything that interferes with straightness of the two sections allows the other parts of the tree to catch the attention of the viewer. The cluttered top 7 branches make (IMHO) the viewer zig zag his eyeballs while following the straight trunk(s) upward. Hopefully not noticing the straightness. Branch #8 is intended to do something similar and arrest his attention with a "Whoa, what's this" response instead of noticing "Hmmm... straightly awkward...". To the extent that all this works, whoopie. If it doesn't, I apologize.

I'm busy right now, but will submit a virt with more appropriate smaller pads later.

leatherback · Dec 9, 2020

remove the lower, crossing. You do not need it. Drop the lowest on the right quite far down and you can go this direction:

Zac chandanais · Dec 9, 2020

I really appreciate the time and attention that you guys are giving this. I can see all views and will consider all of them. I think it is clear that I will have to let this tree recover and reevaluate but I love that this site provides an archive to refer back to when that time comes. Based on the suggestions, I don’t see any of them being a “wrong” decision. I understand that the bar branches are a no no but I also kept them to avoid large gaps so as the tree grows I reevaluate weather or not removing them is a possibility. I would like to eliminate them if possible and will be keeping the lowest rear branch for now and see if the tree grows into it. As it stands now I feel it is too far away from the rest of the branches. The drawings and virtuals provided are an awesome reference and I can not thank you all enough for sharing your wisdom!

Should I keep this branch??

Mame

Omono

Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy

Imperial Masterpiece

Masterpiece

Mame

Mame

Omono

Masterpiece

Imperial Masterpiece

Mame

Masterpiece

The Treedeemer

Imperial Masterpiece

Masterpiece

Masterpiece

The Treedeemer

Imperial Masterpiece

The Treedeemer

Mame

Similar threads