course sand

When it says to use course sand, is this the same as traction grit? Please see the picture below. Traction grit is on the right and all purpose sand is on the left.
Isn't the all purpose sand too fine?

Thanks

The all purpose is definitely too fine/compact.

That traction grit size looks good as far as sand for bonsai goes. Hard to tell what the materials are.

What exactly are you trying to accomplish by using the sand? Some more experienced people on here might be able to guide you in the right direction if they know where you want to go with it.

You can also add your location to your profile so people know your climate etc.

Damn. That traction grit looks pretty nice.
Id look into its composition. Could be a nice source.

I haven’t seen that around these parts. Where are you shopping? if you don’t mind me asking.

I want it to use to propagate ficus plants from stem cuttings. It calls for soil and course sand.
The traction grit was made from clay. There is sand next to the traction grit. I am not sure if anyone uses this kind of sand in the soil.
I live in Philadelphia, PA

Skye325 said:

I want it to use to propagate ficus plants from stem cuttings. It calls for soil and course sand.
The traction grit was made from clay. There is sand next to the traction grit. I am not sure if anyone uses this kind of sand in the soil.
I live in Philadelphia, PA

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I personally like the looks of it. If I had easy access to it I would make some 50/50 mix using that and soil conditioner. For your purposes it would probably be great too, nice economical way to add some "coarseness" to the soil for your cuttings.

Skye325 said:

Traction grit

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Sounds like a composite of unwanted particle sizes of any sifted product they carry. Which could be stuff you need, stuff you can't have, or anything under the great blue......

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

I dont know what is in that traction grit, but I have to guess it wont retain any water or nutrients. Most people have gone away from things like that in an “inorganic mix”. See if they have hort. Lava, same idea but its more porous.

I used to use sand like the all purpose sand and 3/8 gravel in a mix when I first started.
It was heavy, and didnt drain as well as you might think.

As the poster above me mentioned. That traction grit looks like very small gravel or very large sand and it will not retain much moisture or nutrients because its not porous like pumice and lava are.
It will be very heavy to lug around

There are better mediums to use to propagate cuttings

This is in no way a "how-to" from me, just an anecdote from the last two years of not having much access (read not enough money) to get standard bonsai soil components.

I used DE (which does have some cation exchange from what I understand), chicken grit (which is basically crushed granite), and vermiculite/perlite. I still use DE in some of my trees that are in training, but I've moved away from the other three, mostly, due to qualities that irritate me (like perlite and vermiculite floating). The other guys are completely correct about any rock/sand based components. They hold basically no water, provide no air pockets in the particles themselves, and don't add anything to the garden soil quality when I dump it after a repot.

That being said, in the trees that I have used rock/sand components, they seem to be doing just fine, I think partially because they are in larger containers with trees that are still in development. It especially helped with a few nursery stock trees that had some root issues (specifically fungal infections) which needed soil that was drier and held little water. As soon as I'm comfortable with their root health I will be transitioning them out of the cheap soil to a more standard developing tree mix however. From what I've seen, and from my experience over the last year or so, pumice is a much better additive that gives you all the benefits of course sand/rock with none of the downside (and I'll have a better idea come this year as I used it in most of my development repots/initial training potting). Its also not that much more expensive, it doesn't seem so at sticker value but once you have sifted and sorted for size variation you basically get about the same amount of usable soil for you money.

On another note, for trees that really like water (like bald cypress for example), there is absolutely no reason to use a soil component that doesn't retain at least some moisture. For those things, that can literally grow in a bucket of water, you want as much water as you can get.

But I have one more side note. There are at least two guys in our local club that I know of that have been using and still use chicken grit or its equivalent, even in some of their prebonsai (though neither of them use it in their "finished" trees). They swear by it and it can be cheaper if you get a good deal on it (or no somewhere to get it for free).

So I guess that should help obscure the discussion even further.

Schmikah said:

This is in no way a "how-to" from me, just an anecdote from the last two years of not having much access (read not enough money) to get standard bonsai soil components.

I used DE (which does have some cation exchange from what I understand), chicken grit (which is basically crushed granite), and vermiculite/perlite. I still use DE in some of my trees that are in training, but I've moved away from the other three, mostly, due to qualities that irritate me (like perlite and vermiculite floating). The other guys are completely correct about any rock/sand based components. They hold basically no water, provide no air pockets in the particles themselves, and don't add anything to the garden soil quality when I dump it after a repot.

That being said, in the trees that I have used rock/sand components, they seem to be doing just fine, I think partially because they are in larger containers with trees that are still in development. It especially helped with a few nursery stock trees that had some root issues (specifically fungal infections) which needed soil that was drier and held little water. As soon as I'm comfortable with their root health I will be transitioning them out of the cheap soil to a more standard developing tree mix however. From what I've seen, and from my experience over the last year or so, pumice is a much better additive that gives you all the benefits of course sand/rock with none of the downside (and I'll have a better idea come this year as I used it in most of my development repots/initial training potting). Its also not that much more expensive, it doesn't seem so at sticker value but once you have sifted and sorted for size variation you basically get about the same amount of usable soil for you money.

On another note, for trees that really like water (like bald cypress for example), there is absolutely no reason to use a soil component that doesn't retain at least some moisture. For those things, that can literally grow in a bucket of water, you want as much water as you can get.

But I have one more side note. There are at least two guys in our local club that I know of that have been using and still use chicken grit or its equivalent, even in some of their prebonsai (though neither of them use it in their "finished" trees). They swear by it and it can be cheaper if you get a good deal on it (or no somewhere to get it for free).

So I guess that should help obscure the discussion even further.

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I thought @Skye325 said the grit was clay based? This would mean it would retain moisture, no? Now I'm just confused

Yes, I called the store and they said it was made from clay!
I am sorry, Schmikah and Hendo, but what does DE Mean?
And I do have chicken grit that I am going to use when I repot some of my conifers. I didn't think I should use this for propagation.

THANKS TO EVERYONE!! I really appreciate the advice!

Skye325 said:

Yes, I called the store and they said it was made from clay!
I am sorry, Schmikah and Hendo, but what does DE Mean?
And I do have chicken grit that I am going to use when I repot some of my conifers. I didn't think I should use this for propagation.

THANKS TO EVERYONE!! I really appreciate the advice!

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That's pretty cool if it is clay! It is hard to tell from the picture but at second glance does indeed look like there is definitely some rock-ish components in there that wouldn't hold moisture as Schmikah and above posters mentioned, maybe get a closer look when you are there again.

DE is Diatomaceous Earth and is another awesome cheap soil component. I've used this in soil mixtures for a lot of my developing Ficus and Bald Cypress and it works great. Might be worth just getting some of that instead.

I would use the sand. Bonsai Tonight describes using sand to root Pine cuttings here https://bonsaitonight.com/tag/seedling-cutting/ so it seems it is good for initial root formation. I use coarse sand (concrete sand, looks just like that) in a grow-bed. Sand, loam, (and peat added later) in a proportion of 50: 30:20, it has only been used for 4 years, after 2 years I took out two ERC I did not want so I pulled hard on them expecting a struggle but they came out easily weighing 3 pounds of dry-ish soil, two sudden jerks (shakes) and the root ball was bare, leaving a fine very well ramified roots system. One other thing,the bed was light and fluffy when the trees were planted and if I now stand on a patch that has not previously been walked on, I sink. I find that it does not compact if you stay off it!

Skye325 said:

I want it to use to propagate ficus plants from stem cuttings.

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Hello there neighbor!

Ficus is one of the easiest trees to propagate from cuttings I believe. If you're looking to grow cuttings for the sake of having more plants, the simple water in a bottle works great. For me, I cut top 3rd of a 16oz water bottle. Fill it up with water. And in goes the cuttings. Almost all the cuttings took including the 1/4" ones. But if you wants to use a growing medium, it's always good to experiment.

These are cuttings from last winter. Took a little while to root since it was pretty cold. I didn't know what to do with these so I just clumped them up lol.

Skye325 said:

I want it to use to propagate ficus plants from stem cuttings. It calls for soil and course sand.
The traction grit was made from clay. There is sand next to the traction grit. I am not sure if anyone uses this kind of sand in the soil.
I live in Philadelphia, PA

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The reference you were reading about rooting Ficus cuttings is woefully out of date if they are suggesting using "soil". Throw that book out. Or quit reading Facebook and Reddit forums. Go for more authoritative sources, like BNut. LOL. Actually MOBOT, Missouri Botanic Garden website, is one of the other better "consumer friendly website.

Regardless of source, for better houseplants, plants in pots, bonsai, etc. The use of "soil" from the garden, or harvested from more exotic locations has largely been abandoned as being the source of many problems, including insects and plant pathogens. Stop using "dirt".

A very good media for rooting cuttings is a blend of peat and fine perlite. Nearly as good is a blend of peat and the all purpose sand. A "modern" substitute for peat is coir, a fine shredded product make from coconut husks. Coir lasts many years in use, where peat decomposes in a few years. Coir is near pH neutral, where peat is acidic. Depending on species, the acidic reaction of the peat can be desirable. Ficus are not fussy about pH, either peat or coir will work ideal.

Peat, coir, pelite, fine pumice, small amounts of vermiculite, and all purpose sand, are all good "soil-less" components for making a media suitable for rooting cuttings and or sprouting seed. Sift to remove dust, and remove particles larger than 1/8th inch. If you have too wide a variation of particle size air penetration will be compromised. The more uniform the particle size the better the water retention and the air penetration. For rooting cuttings 1/16th thru 1/8 is a good size bracket for cuttings.

I would use 1:1 peat and perlite, or 1:1 coir and perlite. If you have vermiculite, a blend of 2:2:1 of Peat or Coir, pelite, and vermiculite.

Diatomaceous earth - if available - can be used, it has high water holding capacity, and some cation exchange capacity (CEC) which helps holds fertilizer for use by the cuttings. Napa part number 8822 is a fine small particle form of DE, and can work well mixed with perlite, peat, or coir. I would not use DE at 100%, it is best as a component of a mix.

In general, components for rooting cuttings are small in particle size, and sterile. The minerals, such as pelite, pumice, vermiculite, DE, and sand are all inherently near sterile and can be heated in an oven to sterilize them if desired. (usually not necessary, but can be done if you like). An organic component is also used as part of the blend, peat and coir come in more or less sterile. They can be sterilized in an oven, or pasteurized by moistening and heating to 180 F or higher.

If you have pumice on hand, pumice and perlite can be substituted for each other if the particle sizes are comparable.

For raising from seed, particle size can be larger, 1/8 to 1/4 inch range. Seeding mixes can be made from any blend of the above components plus other components not mentioned, including akadama, pine bark, douglas fir bark, horticultural charcoal in moderate amounts, kanuma, diatomaceous earth and others that escape me at this moment.

Hope this helps
Leo

Ficus cuttings are easy to root IF the temperatures are above 70F. Too cool and the cuttings will take a long time to root or fail to root. A windowsill in Philly, PA will have cold air coming off the glass. The pot with the cuttings, should be away from cold drafts. Under lights, or in a bright spot where the cold air coming off the glass of the window won't reach would be ideal.

I too have rooted Ficus cuttings in a glass of water, it is one method. Change the water every couple days for the first week. That will slow the development of "slime". I prefer rooting Ficus in a potting media, but the water method does work.

To keep humidity up, which will help with rooting, you can place the pot with the cuttings in a plastic bag. The bag should be large enough it does not touch the leaves of the cuttings. Add a stake to keep the bag propped up if it is not self supporting. Seal up the bag, or leave it loose to breath a little. Doesn't matter much. When you start seeing growth on the cuttings, new buds and or new leaves, this is a sign roots have formed. Start by opening the bag partially. After of few days of lower humidity, you can open the bag more, then after a couple more days you can remove the bag entirely.

Leo, thanks for the thumbs up on coir. Mixed with perlite it has become my favorite rooting mix. In fact, I have grow beds outside filled with it. It retains a lot of water but never feels wet, much less slimy like peat can be.

Leo, thanks, it does help. I have never heard of coir and will look into it but I have a big package of fine peat moss from home depot and all purpose sand. ( In the picture above. It sound like I can do 50/50? (I also have vermiculite.) The stems are 1/4 inch that I will be cutting so maybe I will transplant the ficus tree into a more appropriate pot to train the roots and cut the branches when it is warmer.
Thanks so much for your input!

@Skye325 That looks like the display at the garden center in Glenside where I purchased my traction grit.
I was thinking of throwing some on my sidewalk today (icy).
As others have said there are lots of choices for little seedlings. What I liked about the traction grit was its weight. Some medium (media?) like perlite are so lite they just float away when you water.
CW