Bonsai Pot Question.

SilentMouse

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So, this little bit of false spring we're having this week has given me a chance to get the first really good look at my bonsai since December. Both the ones I tucked into my shed and the once I ended up keeping out but out of the worst of the wind. Good news, all trees faired SUPER well! An accomplishment for me I think considering despite my research it was my first year and felt I had no idea what I was doing. One of them got a little bit of die back in the wind, but nothing bad and I know now to make sure that one is FIRMLY untouched by the wind and worst of the cold.

Bad news, that particular tree was the only tree I had in a genuine ceramic bonsai pot and the winter absolutely destroyed said pot.

Luckily, I didn't spend much if any money on it, since it came with the Burning Bush bonsai planted in it. Didn't have much of an attachment to the color either, so not broken up about losing it. Even more so since it wasn't completely broken to the point the tree was in danger- in fact, it probably will be okay till spring 2022 if I put it in the shed next year.

However! I am keenly aware know that I do need to keep in mind how much of winter these ceramic pots can take. While I have 2 tabs already open looking into what pots are best thought it would do some good to get advice from practical experience.

Is this a thing where you get your moneys worth, and going for expensive pots will mean a likelier chance of a strong pot? What kind stand up the best to the worst of the midwestern US winters? Will putting them in the shed make a noticeable difference? Any advice will help!
 

penumbra

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There are thousands upon thousands of massed produced pots that will not hold up to northern climes. Spending more on a pot does not guarantee it will be more durable. I am not suggesting you spend a fortune on every pot, but it does make sense to be more selective in pot purchases for your climate. Most slip cast pots are not going to hold up the freeze and thaw cycle of winter. But a good stoneware pot that is fully vitrified can last for decades.
 

sorce

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Man, my trees are coming out too, except I haven't looked at em yet, sure as hell fire checked on these pots though!

20210228_133921_HDR.jpg

Couple poorly fired and/or already cracked and they made it through the ices so far. This is going to allow me to sell seconds with confidence in their survival. So I hope to reach a new level of "affordable" here shortly.

I'd bet the shed would just allow for more freeze thaw cycles, making it more damaging.

And an FYI for those shedding trees. Like I warned against, my buddy told me he couldn't get to his shed the other day in the ice and snow.
At that point it becomes your trees or your shed, and that's a thousand dollar bill I wouldn't care to choose between.

Keep em on the ground!

Sorce
 

RKatzin

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Good pots do not have to cost an arm and a leg. Many good quality pots from Yxing, China at very affordable prices. Some crap pots, also, but these are easily avoided. Usually like three for $25, pass on that. I bought a couple of combos and not real happy with those pots, though none have broken, chipped or cracked, the quality of workmanship is very poor, but still good pots. Weather wise. I have bought many that are show quality (according to the seller) and they are very nice well made pots.
For very nice utilitarian wares that will out last you, I look to Korea and their mica pots. You can get a set of four or five pots for about a hundred bucks. Check Wigerts Bonsai in Ft.Myers Florida, my best source for mica pots and some high end Chinese pots. Bonsai Pot Connection.com, also in Florida, for a great selection of Yxing pottery. Gary Shen is on the west coast and carriers a great selection of Yxing also.
 

sorce

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You can always soak test em yourself.

Leave em on the furnace for a few days then weigh em. Record Weight.

Soak em for 24 hours and weigh em again.
If it hasn't changed it's 99.9 percent likely to be vitreous. Then you only have to be concerned with bag shapes or any inward moving parts that'll give a fourth dimension to stop soil expansion.

Calculate the percentage of absorption if it's not vitreous.

The "industry", (bonsai pots are slightly outside of this "industry") standard is anything under 5% absorbtion is considered frost proof. I try to keep it under 2%. These have been outdoor testing well.

Over 5%, and you would have to boil em for 5 hours and record that weight.

To calculate those weights to see if the "closed porosity" is enough to handle water expansion inside the body, check here for the equation.


Sorce
 

HorseloverFat

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You can always soak test em yourself.

Leave em on the furnace for a few days then weigh em. Record Weight.

Soak em for 24 hours and weigh em again.
If it hasn't changed it's 99.9 percent likely to be vitreous. Then you only have to be concerned with bag shapes or any inward moving parts that'll give a fourth dimension to stop soil expansion.

Calculate the percentage of absorption if it's not vitreous.

The "industry", (bonsai pots are slightly outside of this "industry") standard is anything under 5% absorbtion is considered frost proof. I try to keep it under 2%. These have been outdoor testing well.

Over 5%, and you would have to boil em for 5 hours and record that weight.

To calculate those weights to see if the "closed porosity" is enough to handle water expansion inside the body, check here for the equation.


Sorce

Haha! My “soak tests” are SOOO crude compared to “the thorough way”..

Throw ‘em in water, any clay come off? ...no. Punch ‘em a little, any pieces fall off? ...no? Alright! Good to go! 🤦🏽‍♂️

Well now I know.

🤣🤣

Thank you, friend.
 

penumbra

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Upon Sorce's recommendation, I keep my absorption rate at less than 1% whenever possible.
Glaze fit is another issue. Some pots I have bought have glazes that have chipped and cracked. They were not really cheap but neither were they expensive.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Shape of pot is as important as the quality of the clay and the temperature of the firing.

Pots that have walls that slope outwards are more likely to survive winter freezes. When it freezes the water in the soil mass expands. If the walls of the pot slope outwards the soil mass will slide upward, releasing pressure. If the walls of the pot are perfectly vertical, or slope inwards (as in bag pot designs) when the freezing soil mass expands, it will have no place to go, and the pressure will fracture even a well made, high fired pot.

For trees that winter in the cold freezing temperatures, outward sloping walls are essential.

Second trick. Sift your soils to remove fines. The more coarse the particle size of your mix, and the fewer fines, the more air space in the soil. Goal for planting in good pottery, have no fine particles. The open air spaces will allow ice to expand into the air voids, rather than build pressure on the walls of the pot.

Dense, fine particle size soils with lots of organics will break pots when freezing. Soils with high organic content will break pots. Water has no place to expand into.

Soil carefully sifted to be uniform particle size, and somewhat more coarse particle size will allow freezing water to expand into the air voids, and the pots will not be harmed.
 

sorce

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Then you only have to be concerned with bag shapes or any inward moving parts that'll give a fourth dimension to stop soil expansion.

Well, as fate would have it, here's a good look at a bag break.

20210302_085209.jpg20210302_085213.jpg20210302_085221.jpg

This is a body I made that didn't test vitreous, but study shows this isn't a "non-frost-proof" body break, it's a shape break from full ice.

There is a chance the body didn't take on enough water for it to show signs of "non-frost-proofivity", which will be more of a slough off, and seperation of clay walls themselves.

So, the good news is this pot/body is likely frost proof, but may not hold up to bag shape, though soil may be ok. So this body is looking up. I frigging LOVE the Color!

Maybe I'll boil this one, find the truth.

Sorce
 

hinmo24t

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my downy rattlesnake orchid yamadori (lol) x3 survived the winter , but the white ceramic they were slipped in cracked 360* around the bottom perimeter lol
 

Orion_metalhead

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Im shifting to mica and wood grow boxes for growing out and training. They wont break and arent expensive. When I have a tree that is show ready, Ill get a show pot for it which will be used during the summer and then the tree can be shifted back to a training pot/grow box for winter.
 

leatherback

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Some pots I have bought have glazes that have chipped and cracked.
Had that with one of my pots. Fortunately, this is a purchase directly from the potter who is rebuilding the pot for me as we speak, adjusting the firing. Appearently she had this problem with a range of pots, and was not surprised :)

I find buying directly from the artist does 2 things: The artist makes better money on the pot (Money goes to the person putting the work in). And better warranty. Not a single potter wirth their salt wants a blemish on their name (Which is why I am not sharing the name of the potter that made a mistake in firing the glaze)
 

Pitoon

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Is this a thing where you get your moneys worth, and going for expensive pots will mean a likelier chance of a strong pot?
The cost of a pot has nothing to do with it's abilities to withstand the elements. It's the clay's chemical make up and how it's fired that will determine it's strength.

There's a lot of variables that could affect the price of a said pot.......the artistic skills of the potter, it's rarity, it's age, time to make it, etc........

Most handmade pots, either off the wheel or slab built, have hours and hours put in to make them and they also have to survive two rounds in the kiln. Of course the more elaborate and ornate the pot is you can expect the higher price tag to it.

The cost of clay is cheap around +/- .60 cents a pound if you buy a 50lb box, even cheaper if you buy a pallet. It's the time and effort you are paying for when you buy a pot or pretty much anything for that matter.
 

Oerc201

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Anyone know where to get a pot like this?
 

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Leo in N E Illinois

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Anyone know where to get a pot like this?

That is a fairly "common" oval shape, with vertical walls. I would check websites and ebay sellers offering YiXing pottery. But I noticed your location is Massachusetts, which is cold winter country. The perfectly vertical walls of that shape pot will lock the soil mass into the pot. If the soil freezes, and the water expands, there is a high likelyhood that the pot will be broken if allowed to freeze. I would recommend looking for a style where the walls of the pot slope or slant outwards. Wider at the top than at the bottom. So that the soil mass can slide upwards when the freezing soil expands. Or, store your trees in an above freezing location for the winter.
 
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