Pre-Bonsai What is it?

edprocoat said:

It seems we are like minded on this, I admire the obvious talents of those who are recognized for their trees and the work they do with them and I would love to be able to attain that level of finesse. I just do not see the attraction of owning their tree. I do not feel its anything else besides my desire to work on my own things, I change my own oil, repair anything I can, and even try repairing some things I can not, I do enjoy working with my hands and watching the progress I can accomplish in whatever task I engage in. Its not my style to want anothers work for me to alter, I would liken it to my painting circles on one of Picasso's cubism works, sure it may add my touch, but it would ruin the original artistry, and above all else it would not be mine. A true pre-bonsai tree would be somewhat different as its not a finished piece and what I would do to it would make it mine, still I usually start my own and the nearest I get to pre-bonsai is something nice I have "collected" in a garden center.
I also appreciate the fact that as we are all individuals we have our own tastes, therefore I would never attempt to label or denigrate those who buy finished trees if that is what makes them happy.

ed

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Well Ed I see that the forum continues to compare apples to oranges in making a referance to bonsai fit their idea of what pre bonsai or buying a piece of material that someone else has started.

To use your anology of Picasso, I would have to consider buying my pre bonsai from Kimura. I don't think anyone here on this forum has suggested we buy material from Japanese masters. I think buying a piece of material from someone that has obviously used some bonsai methods to better shape his raw material into a marketable commodity is far away from painting circles on a Picasso. I am sure that if I could afford a piece of Kimura's work, I would not feel the need to Kepplerize it.

It does not take a rocket scientist to see that this maple may have been grown with some bonsai ideas in mind, but if anyone thinks this is just a year away from being show worthy needs to step back and seriously reflect on what they think they know. This is no more than a piece of material that has some great attributes and is ready for someone to take the next steps with it. Do you feel I am, cheating? Is there an envy stigma attached to those that have access to better material than those in other parts of the country, because I have no idea where this feeling comes from? There have been only three people now in my bonsai career of nearly 30 years that have felt the way you have expressed here.
You, Vance and Will Heath.


I too have felt the need to "do it myself" from time to time, and I have. As I get older, I find those ideals rather stifling. There is so much more that I want to do. Doing it my way allows me to do that. If you lived in California, you might feel differently.

What should we call the people in the nursery trade that bring the nursery grown material to market? Are they not people too? What about someone like Geaorge Muranaka or Brent Walston, are they bonsai growers or nursery tradesmen? I have seen plenty of material from both that could be considered "just nursery material" and I have seen "just nursery' nursery material that could be considered pre bonsai. You mention "other peoples work" like other peoples work is taboo. How is nursery material any different than pre bonsai? Again, don't people handles material at the nursery trade level? Don't they prune and pot things up when necessary? How about those nurseries that never sell off stuff, and they keep getting bigger and bigger, like the stuff that Walter Pall was able to find in some old mom and pop nursery. It happens. Someone worked on that. Do they not count in this grand bonsai scheme.

So what does doing it myself actually mean? Would you be considered less of an artist if you started with a trunk with some taper in it already but no canopy and continued on to a bautiful tree? Or would you be considerd a better artist if you did it all yourself with some crappy nursery stock with no taper and it came out....well crappy. Well you can always say you did it yourself, but I would rather be known for the beautiful tree that was a sure thing then be known for the crappy tree I did all by myself. The self gratification of doing it myself is overshadowed for me by the crappy tree. I get no satisfaction out of bench full of crappy trees.

Either way the resulting product is judged for it's asthetic results and no one really cares about where you started. People only care about where you finish. 25 years ago I would have been better equipped to stand by your side in this matter, 25 years later, not so much. People are so much better educated and really know if someone knows what the hell they are doing.

Now, if this is a religious experiance for you, if this gives you some kind of inner peace, fung shui, or wabi-sabi, then OK. I can go with that, but the Picasso reference, thats kind of out there.

I found that for myself, when I started purchasing better material to work on that my understanding of bonsai technique improved as well.

davetree said:

I found that for myself, when I started purchasing better material to work on that my understanding of bonsai technique improved as well.

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That's good but you have to admit that a lot of the hard stuff in developing material may have already been done for you. If you have no interest in going through that stage that's OK also. Not meaning to be argumentative or diminish your opinion but just wanting to add to the discussion. No matter what side of the argument you come from there is always a down side. In this case it is easier to add a coat of paint and do the landscaping to a new house than it is to build the house as well. That being said, there is a lot to be said for easier, I wont argue that.

Smoke said:

Now, if this is a religious experiance for you, if this gives you some kind of inner peace, fung shui, or wabi-sabi, then OK. I can go with that, but the Picasso reference, thats kind of out there.

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That statement is further out than the Picasso reference. The majority of the bonsai people I know enjoy the process of creating bonsai at least as much as the final result.

Gene this dictates that if you are of certain age, you stop the beloved hobby, because they will never see fruition.

I don't think anyone is advocating that prebonsai are even close to FINISHED bonsai, which is what I think Al was refering to Piccaso about, as far as majority is concerned, I believe the majority actually uses prebonsai. If all the poop on prebonsai is considered accurate, then most would not use collected materials as either God has worked them for sometime or the same design issues that go for seedlings creates bad bonsai no matter how manipulated. The VAST majority of trees that could be collected wouldn't make for good bonsai at all. The vast majority of lanndscape materials would set you back time vs. growing from seed, how many bonsai enthusiasts would only consider bonsai grown by themselves from seed?

Bill S said:

Gene this dictates that if you are of certain age, you stop the beloved hobby, because they will never see fruition.

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Just the opposite, I think. If you really like the process of doing bonsai then you will do it for that very reason - even if you are of an age such that reaching the final goal you envision is not likely.

I don't think it is easier to work on pre-bonsai vs. not pre-bonsai. I had to elevate my game, so to speak, to work on better material. It was more difficult and the mistakes more costly, so I had to learn more.

Vance Wood said:

That's good but you have to admit that a lot of the hard stuff in developing material may have already been done for you. If you have no interest in going through that stage that's OK also. Not meaning to be argumentative or diminish your opinion but just wanting to add to the discussion. No matter what side of the argument you come from there is always a down side. In this case it is easier to add a coat of paint and do the landscaping to a new house than it is to build the house as well. That being said, there is a lot to be said for easier, I wont argue that.

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Gene Deci said:

That statement is further out than the Picasso reference. The majority of the bonsai people I know enjoy the process of creating bonsai at least as much as the final result.

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Ok, you guys are really going in a different direction than I thought possible.

Are you two thinking that by starting fresh with a piece of material intended to be bonsai, that the process is easier? Because thats what I am reading here. If you think that, it is easy to see how you guys think the way you do. I'll tell you though the more I read about persons thoughts on certain subjects the more educated I become into why these forums work the way they do and why I never get to see better trees.

Smoke said:

Ok, you guys are really going in a different direction than I thought possible.

Are you two thinking that by starting fresh with a piece of material intended to be bonsai, that the process is easier? Because thats what I am reading here. If you think that, it is easy to see how you guys think the way you do. I'll tell you though the more I read about persons thoughts on certain subjects the more educated I become into why these forums work the way they do and why I never get to see better trees.

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With all due respect Al, the reason you don't see better trees is mostly because people don't post many trees, good bad or in between anymore. I know what some people think of my trees so I no longer post them.

Smoke said:

Are you two thinking that by starting fresh with a piece of material intended to be bonsai, that the process is easier? Because thats what I am reading here. If you think that, it is easy to see how you guys think the way you do. I'll tell you though the more I read about persons thoughts on certain subjects the more educated I become into why these forums work the way they do and why I never get to see better trees.

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I do not think it is easy no matter where you start. I am just saying that there are lots of reasons people do bonsai and none of them has to be defended - they are all valid. Vance may like to do things from scratch. Thats fine. Smoke may prefer starting with more advanced material. That is fine also. One thing I have learned from this thread is how diverse our approaches to bonsai are. That may have been Vance's intent. If that is the case, good for him. If we learn to appreciate different prespectives then that is a fine thing too.

I know what some people think of my trees so I no longer post them.

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What does what anyone else thinks of your (or my) trees have to do with posting them? If you like them, post and be proud. Ignore those who say they stink, listen to those who suggest valid (in your mind) improvements (then follow them or not), and bask in the words of in those (however few they may seem) who like what you do.

Vance, what the hell is wrong with your trees?? I've seen them on AoB and on other forums and they're damn good, for what it's worth. I agree with jkl, post them and be proud.

Gene Deci said:

I do not think it is easy no matter where you start. I am just saying that there are lots of reasons people do bonsai and none of them has to be defended - they are all valad. Vance may like to do things from scratch. Thats fine. Smoke may prefer starting with more advanced material. That is fine also. One thing I have learned from this thread is how diverse our approaches to bonsai are. That may have been Vance's intent. If that is the case, good for him. If we learn to appreciate different prespectives then that is a fine thing too.

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I'm glad you get it and understand. Too often people are not only discouraged but even financially injured because they go out and purchase material they are not ready to handle. A number of years ago I personally knew an individual who went out and purchased close to ten-thousand dollars worth of world class pre-bonsai from a nursery noted for their pre-bonsai. Needless to say, within three years all of those trees were dead. Would he have been better served starting with less expensive material? You tell me. If you have the money and you don't mind spending it then by all means do so. Personally I never have had that luxury or inclination if I did have the resource.

Do I produce world class bonsai? Some think not. Do I enjoy doing what I do? Yes.

jkl said:

What does what anyone else thinks of your (or my) trees have to do with posting them? If you like them, post and be proud. Ignore those who say they stink, listen to those who suggest valid (in your mind) improvements (then follow them or not), and bask in the words of in those (however few they may seem) who like what you do.

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That is most appreciated, and you are probably right.

John Ruger said:

Vance, what the hell is wrong with your trees?? I've seen them on AoB and on other forums and they're damn good, for what it's worth. I agree with jkl, post them and be proud.

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Oh crap, now I've got to post some photos. LOL, thanks for the kind words.

yeah, please do so! It would be a real education to see how your trees progressed and to understand the methods behind the madness; there's a boat-load to learn from that. That's why I became a member of the site, to share and learn as much as possible from you guys who've been at this for a hell of a lot longer than I have.

Does it really matter what the definition of "pre-bonsai" is? No offense, as I'm not trying to be snarky or anything, but can't we just say it's somewhere on the spectrum of completely raw material and "finished" bonsai? I have a hard time understanding why the bonsai forums seem to be full of threads with theoretical questions like this.

mcpesq817 said:

Does it really matter what the definition of "pre-bonsai" is? No offense, as I'm not trying to be snarky or anything, but can't we just say it's somewhere on the spectrum of completely raw material and "finished" bonsai? I have a hard time understanding why the bonsai forums seem to be full of threads with theoretical questions like this.

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It is from theory that you get practice. Do you think wire was always used in doing bonsai. Do you think summer repotting of certain species of Pine was common practice---etc. But again if it floats your boat then do it, if it sinks you raft; don't; but at least you have some sort of idea where people's heads are at and can benefit from their trials and errors.

How would you nuts classify this example? Would you work with this material? Why, or why not?

Dave

HotAction said:

How would you classify this example? Would you work with this material? Why, or why not?

Dave

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If I ran into this tree in a nursery I would grab it up in a minute. There is a lot to work with. Large trunk base and a lot of possibilities. It does look like it needs a couple of years of good care but yes, it's worth a shot. It looks like San Jose Juniper. As to style and all of that I don't worry about that kind of thing in the beginning.