That is a exceptionally nice pot Mr Sorce! Did you quit drinking?
American-made ceramics forms
- Thread starter bwaynef
- Start date
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
Couldn't agree more with this post. In the US there are a lot of wheel thrown pots because they are easy. To me "rustic" pottery is just a fancy way of saying "to try to hide mistakes". Slab built pots are extremely hard to do well because they show flaws. And the larger the pot, the harder it is to both hide the flaws, and deal with the natural variability that comes with ceramics. I have almost no trees that would fit in a pot smaller than 9"... and most of my trees (which are not all that large) need at least 18" pots. I'd say that 75% or more of pots that I see being made are too small for me to use on any of my trees. To be honest, many "bonsai pots" I see being produced are (at least in my eyes) not suitable for bonsai of any size or type.
I am planning on buying my own kiln and making my own pots because I simply can't find enough good slab-built pots. The good news is that because I don't have to sell my work, I can take the time to do the job well... which may not be practical for a commercial potter who knows they can sell three cheap wheel-thrown "rustic" pots in the time it takes to make a slab-built pot with tight tolerances.
It is a strange thing with Western art aesthetic, where people start by making splashy flashy unpolished work, and then perhaps get around to mastering fundamentals down the road. Some of the potters whose names have come up on this thread have difficulty even with basic symmetry - like symmetrical foot placement on an oval. Not going to name names, but I am not impressed with the American bonsai pottery scene taken as a whole. There are a handful of exceptional potters who consistently sell good work, but most of what I see I am not impressed by. I just watched a video that featured a Japanese potter whose entire job is just to finish high-end Japanese slab-built pots. In other words, other potters send him their raw unfired work and he removes all the flaws - every fingerprint, mark, sag, line, scratch, etc. Is there a single American potter who is even aware that such finishing work is done?
How many bonsai that are at the US national show are in American pots? Find out who those potters are, and you will find your good potters. If I were a potter, my first goal would be to get one of my pots in the national show - and better yet to win an award with a tree in one of my pots.
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Pitoon
Imperial Masterpiece
Slab built mame's?...........I could be up for the challenge!
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
I couldn't agree more. When I see perfectly ordinary looking 4" or 6" pots for $100 I ask myself, "Who the Hell has trees that small that merit a $100 pot?" The answer is Damn Few. I made pots that look like rocks for a while and since I spent my life as a custom moulder of plastics, it didn't take long to establish that you ( me, anyway ) can't get enough money for onesy-twosy class A items to make it worthwhile or even just break-even. The market for even remarkable bonsai pots is too small and too cheap to support the skillful art that it takes to make such stuff.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Gotta go bigger ...
You know what the problem is?
Patience.
Most Woodfire Kiln designs and firings negate the need for firing patience, but who is both making rectangles and firing their own woofire kiln?
2 or 3 regular potters?
I don't believe we have the kiln capacity, (for bonsai pots), for us to make large strides toward perfect wares.
Everywhere you look in modern pottery, people are trying to do things fast. This approach works...(haha, I was going to say fine, but I believe the Japanese would laugh at that even) for everything but really good quality high iron stoneware bonsai pots.
That's why everyone uses light, cleaner clays with ugly ass stains on them to make them dark.
This has made me want to vomit for quite some time, but it's all making sense lately.
So much misinformation.
I'm free of that nonsense now!
You wanna see my Sushi Serving set?
Still needs another glaze.
Sorce
You know what the problem is?
Patience.
Most Woodfire Kiln designs and firings negate the need for firing patience, but who is both making rectangles and firing their own woofire kiln?
2 or 3 regular potters?
I don't believe we have the kiln capacity, (for bonsai pots), for us to make large strides toward perfect wares.
Everywhere you look in modern pottery, people are trying to do things fast. This approach works...(haha, I was going to say fine, but I believe the Japanese would laugh at that even) for everything but really good quality high iron stoneware bonsai pots.
That's why everyone uses light, cleaner clays with ugly ass stains on them to make them dark.
This has made me want to vomit for quite some time, but it's all making sense lately.
So much misinformation.
I'm free of that nonsense now!
You wanna see my Sushi Serving set?
Still needs another glaze.
Sorce
namnhi
Masterpiece
Just look through this thread. Believe am the proud owner of the third rectangle pot in this post. Come to papa in one piece on Tuesday!
thams
Omono
American bonsai pottery is very inconsistent. Large well-made pots are nearly impossible to find, although Jim Barrett made some good stuff in his day. Most of those pots don't end up in FB auctions though. If I were to give any advice to potters just starting out (not that I'm in a good position to do so), I would say to forget the glazes and master forms first. After that, have at it.
There are a handful of American bonsai potters that I consider very good - David Bennett (@ABCarve) and Steve Ziebarth both come to mind. I think both potters blend east and west aesthetics nicely to produce some interesting containers. I was lucky enough to snag an accent pot that Ziebarth made and showed in his national's display. Granted it was an accent pot, but it still made an appearance at nationals. The problem is some of the awesome pots that are being produced now probably won't have the appropriate age on them to show for quite some time. Either way, if I had a lot of disposable income I would buy up pretty much everything that @ABCarve makes to age for the future. Again, the more US potters we have producing quality pots that end up in shows, the better it'll be for American bonsai. Are trees are making massive improvements every year, so I'm hoping our pots will follow suit as well.
thams
Omono
I'd love to see it!!Slab built mame's?...........I could be up for the challenge!
Pitoon
Imperial Masterpiece
Let me come up with a design and make some templates. I'll make one and post it for critiques.
bwaynef
Masterpiece
Thankful this thread's finally starting to take off in the direction intended.
Pitoon
Imperial Masterpiece
So design finished and templates cut out. The drawing on the paper is the actual size of the pot. Internal measurements: roughly 2" x 3", depth 3/4", 1/2" rim as seen from above. Finished measurements will roughly be 14% smaller. I'll be adding cloud feet and maybe a band towards the bottom of the pot. Hoping to have this finished by next weekend.
thams
Omono
I think that's a good start. I like the simplicity and the fact that you've added a rim. If you can avoid the infamous inward bowing walls, then you'll be at least halfway there.
ABCarve
Masterpiece
@thams thank you so much for the kind words and I’m sure Steve thanks you as well. He’s a very accomplished painter and bonsaist in his own right. The economics of bonsai pottery is to say the least complex. When I sell a pot for what most people here think of as expensive, I’m probably making close to minimum wages, let alone the expense of the studio and equipment. I do it for the love of doing it and for keeping my mental health through our cold, grey winters. For now I think @Bonsai Nut has the right idea. I make pots for myself and sell the overflow. I have done commissions but mostly for projects I think are interesting. After all it is a hobby.
thams
Omono
I find it particularly amusing that many people balk at the higher priced, quality handmade American pots, but then will happily overpay for an imported, mold-made mediocre Japanese pot. I think people have a tough time distinguishing between medium and high quality pots. Maybe it's difficult to discern in pictures, but usually the quality difference is much more obvious in person. I certainly appreciate the care you put into making your pots. I wish more potters took the same care as well. I think we're moving as a whole in the right direction - it's just slow going.
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
This is a great thread for thought and there have been a lot of great points made by several people.
In the end it is a buyers market.
In the end it is a buyers market.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
For commercial potters who are trying to maxmize their income - yes, there is probably more money in churning out the equivalent of pot mallsai. But I think what a lot of people here are saying is that there are a lot of mallsai potters churning out wares that some folks are confusing as good pots
Just because someone buys it doesn't make it a good bonsai pot Perhaps we should start a thread "what makes a good bonsai pot"
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mwar15
Omono
I have seen it first hand. It takes me 5-6 time longer to make one slab pot and the people on the wheel have made 5-6 mug/bowls. I still refuse to get on a wheel
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
You have no argument from me. I have seen a lot of crap on the market that I would never consider. I have also made pots I would never considering offering. I have seen Yixing potters from China spend 6 hours to make a single teapot that sold for $10,000. I can appreciate and understand extreme quality. But your adherence to this topic is very telling. It is appropriate for pots used for show or for those who can afford them, or more importantly, recognize the extreme quality. But there is, as in all things, a variance of opinions of what is acceptable to an individual. I think this thread is excellent and have enjoyed all the comments. but,For commercial potters who are trying to maxmize their income - yes, there is probably more money in churning out the equivalent of pot mallsai. But I think what a lot of people here are saying is that there are a lot of mallsai potters churning out wares that some folks are confusing as good pots
in the end it is a buyers market.
A thread on what makes a good bonsai pot is an excellent idea and because this subject is important to me, I welcome it. But it is a subject that is and always will be subjective. When you ask, what is a good bonsai pot .......good for what? A hideous pot can be a great pot for developing a bonsai but terrible for showing one. Of coarse the reverse is also true. As to "mallsai potters churning out wares that some folks are confusing as good pots", where is the confusion? If it suites you, it suites you. If it doesn't, it doesn't. If it offends, it offends. But in the end, it is a buyer's market.
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
It is a tool, like any other. I refuse to give mine up.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
I think a thread on...
"What makes a good Bonsai Pot?"
Starts and ends with Patina.
Sorce
"What makes a good Bonsai Pot?"
Starts and ends with Patina.
Sorce
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