“Hard” akadama

[MrFancyPlants]

I have about half a bag of “hard” akadama that I can break apart with my fingers, but it is a nice and large size. Do you think I should include some in my mix of pumice, calidama (cannot crush w fingers), scoria... optional organics are spaghnum and compost depending on species. I hate the idea of wasting it since it is the most expensive component I have.

 

[just.wing.it]

I just received my first order of "hard" akadama....its easily crushed between two fingers.
I'm not super happy about it....not super surprised either.
What's up with this stuff? I guess as 1/3 of a mix with lava and pumice it should be fine.

I have about half a bag of “hard” akadama that I can break apart with my fingers, but it is a nice and large size. Do you think I should include some in my mix of pumice, calidama (cannot crush w fingers), scoria... optional organics are spaghnum and compost depending on species. I hate the idea of wasting it since it is the most expensive component I have.

Did you use yours @MrFancyPlants ?
Anything to tell since early 2018?
Good/Bad?

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Yup, I’ve been using it mixed in. I guess the other components keep it from turning to cement.

 

[leatherback]

What's up with this stuff?

lol.
I am always soo surprised that some people see akadama as the one stop, solves all magical substrate where I find it just mud-waiting-to-kill. And pretty much everybody that buys it for the first time is surprised at the rubbish consistency.

MAYBE in the past it was good. But right now, I see no compleeing need to have it in pots!

 

[Woocash]

lol.
I am always soo surprised that some people see akadama as the one stop, solves all magical substrate where I find it just mud-waiting-to-kill. And pretty much everybody that buys it for the first time is surprised at the rubbish consistency.

MAYBE in the past it was good. But right now, I see no compleeing need to have it in pots!

“Done things” are really hard to shake off though aren’t they? I reserve most judgement because I’ve not used it save for it being the soil my first tree came in, but I’m 99% sure that the Japanese use it because they have it on their door step. The rest of the world use it because the Japanese use it. Selling ice to Eskimos comes to mind.

 

[leatherback]

I’ve not used it save for it being the soil my first tree came in, but I’m 99% sure that the Japanese use it because they have it on their door step.

exactly.

As I like to say: What a wondrous miracle that the best bonsai substrate in the whole wide world occurs naturally in the home of growing bonsai.

I have had some trees die on me. Taking them from the pot they were in yellow dense clay. Asking the seller, they told me it was not fieldclay, it was planted in pure kakadama by them. My lesson learned. I once bought a bag to try for myself. And comparisons on seedlings showed no better root development in yellow muck over backed loam (kitty litter) with bark. So.. window -> out

 

[Woocash]

And comparisons on seedlings showed no better root development in yellow muck over backed loam (kitty litter) with bark. So.. window -> out

Good to know, because that what I use

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Looking back, I originally posted this before the workshop where I repotted this tree in 2018. While certainly no double blind test, the tree responded well over the next month and a half between the photos, and has continued to respond well since without major root work. I wouldn’t advocate 100% akadama. But as part of a “Boonish” mix , which I amended with 5-10% sifted compost and long strand spaghnum, the results have worked well for me.
Are there cheaper ways to attain the same drainage, porosity and cec characteristics? Sure, but kitty litter in the States will kill your tree quick.
Ooh ooh, soil war salvo!

Cheers and respect,
David

 

[just.wing.it]

I'm going to try it out on a few trees this year....mainly my JBP, which is in mud right now.
I'll be using lava, pumice and akadama in equal parts. May even try some akadama added to my normal lava, pumice and Fir bark.

 

[Maiden69]

I got no hands on experience as most of you do... but after listening to so many top bonsai artist (one of which has a degree in horticulture) podcasts, videos, and posts here, and see that they rely to akadama for their bonsai trees makes me think that the stupid piece of dirt works. I mean if you want something that doesn't breakdown use turface. What about Cali-dama? That was suppose to have all the benefits of akadama and none of the draw backs... why hasn't it exploded on the market?

From Ryan, akadama best qualities is the CEC capabilities, that it allow roots to grow between the capillaries (just like they do on organic material) breaking down creating particles scalable to the size of the root system. This is why he doesn't recommend the use of akadama for trees in development, but for trees in refinement.

One thing I have found about akadama is that my cuttings grow roots in it as fast as they do in sphagnum moss, without me having to go nuts trying to separate the sphagnum without ripping the roots apart when transplanting into pots.

 

[just.wing.it]

This is why he doesn't recommend the use of akadama for trees in development, but for trees in refinement.

This may be the most important consideration.....and may change my plans for this year.
Thanks for reminding me of that thought of Ryan's.....I had forgotten all that stuff about CEC exchange.

 

[Maiden69]

Thanks for reminding me of that thought of Ryan's.....I had forgotten all that stuff about CEC exchange.

I think @markyscott also made reference of that in one of his Inorganic Soil threads.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

What about Cali-dama?

I actually used calidama in that repot instead of scoria. It is naturally high fired, so won’t break down but doesn’t have much CEC. The main advantage is that it looks like akadama, i.e. red rocks are not natural looking in most landscapes.

 

[Japonicus]

This may be the most important consideration.....and may change my plans for this year.
Thanks for reminding me of that thought of Ryan's.....I had forgotten all that stuff about CEC exchange.

Read this short description...

3 Gallons 1/4 Inch Monto Clay pH 5.6 (Montmorillonite Calcined Clay) Bonsai Soil Amendment (12 Dry Quarts) – Bonsai Jack ©

www.bonsaijack.com

...and see what you think. I've had the same issue, actually worse, ordering akadama from a highly reputable importer and dealer of bonsai
in the NE as you've had. Notate the trees and dates you do use your akadama in, repot them 3 years from now and compare to
ones you did not use akadama in (soil compaction and root + foliage health). I think this is the only way to tell if it's for you or not, but use it in Boon like ratio.
When I used it, the biggest benefit was visual moisture content. I preferred 25% ratio here for my climate, amended with bark as well.

The thing I cannot understand about the refinement statement is this
trees that are older and in refinement are repotted less frequently...

 

[Maiden69]

Ryan did a repot of a big pomegranate that was planted in Cali-dama after pulling it out of the ground. Root development was great, but the tree was planted in a huge colander as well, and with the right about of water/fertilizer I think the results were similar to 100% pumice in collected material. He said he was going to do more research and testing with it, but so far nothing. I guess either he liked it and is trying to get more data or it sucked and he stopped. Sounds like it is just like turface, the fact that it was being sold at "almost" akadama price being a fired clay makes me scratch my head about it.

 

[Maiden69]

The thing I cannot understand about the refinement statement is this
trees that are older and in refinement are repotted less frequently...

Yes, trees that he start refinement (looking for finer ramification, starting the path for a showable tree) he plants in 100% akadama.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Well it is an interesting topic, yet its seems the best thing is to stick with facts.

High caliber trees throughout the industry use akadama as part of the media.

Perhaps 90% of the highest quality azaleas in the world are planted in 100% Kanuma, which is a kissing cousin to akadama and even “softer”

It’s the physical qualities inherent in both these materials that make each especially good for root penetration and CEC exchange. Just because the Shin looks like dense packed clay doesn’t mean it’s bad. Many growers never touch this area of the tree for decades.

We use Boon mix for all trees at the Pacific Bonsai Museum except for azaleas. All potted Satsuki are in 100% kanuma.

Andrew Robson uses 50 : 50 Akadama : Pumice to optimism his Maple and deciduous trees health. Ryan Neil is now experimenting with 100% akadama on trees and uses a variety of akadama mixes. The list goes on and on. (My trees are in Boon mix and azalea are in kanuma not that even matters... and thriving.)

Are there similar materials in the US, that’s likely, especially in Oregon, according one geologist I’ve read.

Do other mixes work as well or better is the key question. Frankly I don’t know. I’ve never seen a thorough scientific comprehensive side by side study on this topic with an (n) large enough to warrant a fair judgement.

Yet people do produce credible Bonsai without either akadama or kanuma. Are they as good or better? Hard to tell as so much variable stuff goes into each tree from the person behind the watering can.

Are these media to be dismissed out of hand? No way IMO.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Japonicus]

Yes, trees that he start refinement (looking for finer ramification, starting the path for a showable tree) he plants in 100% akadama.

So, much of that comes from trust. My trust is broken.
If I repot less frequently, I think, I t h i n k, I use something that breaks down slower than the mud I've bought
under the hard fired two line name and in "Premium" blend using the two line brand that was mud before use.
Otherwise I would be having to repot every other year for oxygen sake.

 

[Lazylightningny]

The thing about akadama- it does break down and seem mushy like clay, but its ability to grow fine roots is indisputable. I use it in all my mixes. There seems to be a shortage this year though.

 

[Maiden69]

So, much of that comes from trust. My trust is broken.
If I repot less frequently, I think, I t h i n k, I use something that breaks down slower than the mud I've bought
under the hard fired two line name and in "Premium" blend using the two line brand that was mud before use.
Otherwise I would be having to repot every other year for oxygen sake.

All the akadama I have bought to date is the double red line. After sifting it I think I had about 2 cups of fines (smaller than 1/16") which I am using to root my cuttings from a bag of small size particles. Everything else was between 1/16-1/4", which is the size it is supposed to be. One of the reports Mirai did last year was of a Pond/Bald cypress forest that had been done 6 years before the report in 100% akadama, and there were still particles left that had not broken down.

I can not debate with your experience, because it is just like perceptions... everybody has their own. But there are several members here that use akadama, be it in their own mixes, or in one of the many custom mixes being sold, ie... Boons mix without experiencing the mud likeness that you have. Heck, there is a bonsaist from Spain that exclusively uses the double red line akadama and he never experiences breakdown, and he has shown trees that were potted 4-5 years in it and the particles are mostly intact... he just let it dry, sieve and reuse.

For example

Is it bad if soil particles have very different sizes?

Particles don't need to be the same size. If that were the case Alabama wouldn't be in use at all. It breaks down so its particle size changes. I use napa 8822 with lava. The lava is larger. So what? Also trees don't care about particle size.

www.bonsainut.com

Red text. akadama is not fired. if it was fired it will not breakdown