$1.00 Nana

[Rick Moquin]

It was discussed in the past month how do we address (feed) the thirst of knowledge displayed by newly introduced enthusiast. Well, I picked up this tidbit from Hans van Meer's interview carried out at A of B. I believe we all can learn from the following statement:

You should not make it too difficult for the newbies with all kinds of foreign words and useless information they don’t need at first. Let them enjoy and learn while they are actually doing bonsai themselves. Let them decide their own pace of learning, and the level they want to practice bonsai in. Whatever you do, don’t force your own styling opinions onto there virgin minds. Don’t spoil their imagination. With the more experienced bonsaist I will try to explain and teach all the important things that come after you have learned the rules. I teach things such as negative space, rhythm, balance, movement, visual speed, and other important principles that make the difference between a bonsai and a good bonsai.

 

[Attila Soos]

It was discussed in the past month how do we address (feed) the thirst of knowledge displayed by newly introduced enthusiast. Well, I picked up this tidbit from Hans van Meer's interview carried out at A of B. I believe we all can learn from the following statement:

You should not make it too difficult for the newbies with all kinds of foreign words and useless information they don’t need at first. Let them enjoy and learn while they are actually doing bonsai themselves. Let them decide their own pace of learning, and the level they want to practice bonsai in. Whatever you do, don’t force your own styling opinions onto there virgin minds. Don’t spoil their imagination. With the more experienced bonsaist I will try to explain and teach all the important things that come after you have learned the rules. I teach things such as negative space, rhythm, balance, movement, visual speed, and other important principles that make the difference between a bonsai and a good bonsai.

These commenst from Rick (and Hans) made me realize again, how little these newcomers need from us, and we still have difficulty providing them the most basic things. The most important thing is encouragement and understanding. And the second in importance is to give them a few very basic suggestions, and no more than that.

The biggest mistake we are making is that we try to teach them everything in our first post to them. That's why we come across as being arrogant. When someone posts a pencil-sized plant and asks for advice, the natural thing for a lot of us is to thell him to put the plant back into the ground. This is a good advice, but the problem is that this advice requires much more knowledge than what the student has. To explain in every detail why growing in the ground is the best, it would take an article of several pages long, starting with plant physiology in the ground vs. pot culture, explaining the importance of "trunk first, and branches later", etc, etc. The student doesn't know all this, so he feels that we are telling him to forget about doing bonsai and instead, start growing plants in his backyard. And this sounds arrogant and sarcastic.

Instead of all this lecturing, we should just give him a little encouragement and a few hints, just enough to make him come back for more knowledge.., one tiny bit of knowledge at a time. Witholding information is just as important than giving information: correct dosage is the key. Using an example, a drug overdose is worse than no drug. By allowing him to set his own pace of learning, the time will come when he will be ready to understand why his plant needs to go back into the ground. Then he will begin to understand why his trees are so different from what we call a masterpiece, and he will be ready for more advanced questions.

Giving the student too much information is like dragging a blind man across the street and then telling him that we know better what's best for him. First we must respect a man's pride, before we try to help him. Pride is the most precious thing that a person has. I've spent enough time on Internet forums to realize that pride is much more important than bonsai. We also need to realize that most bonsaists start at an advanced age (30+), and for them, respect and understanding is much more important than being lectured. The excuse that "we are giving them accurate information" is a bad excuse. When a person's pride is hurt, the information we are giving him is useless. And the advice "dont' take it personally" is also useless. It is human nature to "take it personally".

Unfortunately, not everybody is a good teacher. Some of us are really bad teachers. Good teaching requires skill, like everything else. Possessing a lot of knowledge doesn't make us good teachers. This is the problem with the Internet: good teachers and bad teachers have equal opportunities. The result is often discouraging. But then there is the good part, and that's why we keep coming back.

 

[Anonymous User]

Wise man once say, careful when ask for advice, you may get it.



Will

 

[Vance Wood]

Wise man once say, careful when ask for advice, you may get it.



Will

That's true, but as long as we are discussing truth there is another truth at work here no one has as yet addressed; there is a difference between truth and compliment. Some people will post a piece of work looking for compliments, while saying they want comments. They will sometime receive the unwashed truth---and not like it. There is also a fine line between truth and just plain old criticism; some cannot tell the difference, others don't want to and still others choose to take offence and make a federal case of it.

 

[Hans Vleugels]

It was discussed in the past month how do we address (feed) the thirst of knowledge displayed by newly introduced enthusiast. Well, I picked up this tidbit from Hans van Meer's interview carried out at A of B. I believe we all can learn from the following statement:

You should not make it too difficult for the newbies with all kinds of foreign words and useless information they don’t need at first. Let them enjoy and learn while they are actually doing bonsai themselves. Let them decide their own pace of learning, and the level they want to practice bonsai in. Whatever you do, don’t force your own styling opinions onto there virgin minds. Don’t spoil their imagination. With the more experienced bonsaist I will try to explain and teach all the important things that come after you have learned the rules. I teach things such as negative space, rhythm, balance, movement, visual speed, and other important principles that make the difference between a bonsai and a good bonsai.

Wise words by Hans, but....

I wish I didn't lose two, maybe three years working on that kind of material. I wish somebody had told me over then it was crap, and never was going to be a good bonsai. Because I lost two, three years working on it. Okay, you learn some basics on it, but that's it. The result will never be satisfying, or will take more than 15 years to become acceptable. But most of the people told me it was OK, or just didn't say anything. Not to speak about the amount of money I lost on this stock.

Of course there is difference in how you bring this, but at the end it is the newby who has to accept it. And the newby or even more advanced enthusiasts have to have the possibility to find good starting material. As Colin Lewis said on the same forum: The most important lesson to teach a student is how to recognize good raw bonsai material. That's where all good bonsai begin. Without good material you can't make good bonsai: As John Naka said, “You can’t make chicken soup out of chicken crap.” Once you can recognize good material, you should also recognize why it’s good and how to progress it.

So I think you have to make clear the difference between good bonsai and what's not. Also, we don't want to forget a bonsai forum is an online community with many different people on it, with many different opinions. I think if we all say our honest opinion, or give the best advice possible, it would be good for the community. Sometimes it will clash, and there will be a quarrel once and a while. But doesn't that happen in real life too? Don't you have words with friends or family? If it doesn't escalate to plain abusive language, maybe somebody will learn from it. But not everybody wants to learn this...

Regards,
Hans

 

[Attila Soos]

I wish I didn't lose two, maybe three years working on that kind of material. I wish somebody had told me over then it was crap, and never was going to be a good bonsai. Because I lost two, three years working on it. Okay, you learn some basics on it, but that's it. The result will never be satisfying, or will take more than 15 years to become acceptable. But most of the people told me it was OK, or just didn't say anything. Not to speak about the amount of money I lost on this stock.

Hans,
This is a very important point.
But, we cannot take responsibility for someone else's education. When a stranger asks a question on a forum, we don't know anything about him.

Before we flood him with information, and tell him not to waste his time, it is his responsibility to let us know how much he wants to learn. First, he must show a willingness to do what it takes to learn the most efficient way.

You see, a lot of people don't want to go through that because they are not too serious about bonsai beyond being a light hobby. They want a little hand-holding, an little chatting, and that's it. Don't assume that everybody is really serious about bonsai.

People who are passionate and want to learn everything, will first let you know. They will not stop after getting a few morsels of information. Once you are sure where this person comes from, then you can drill him with the heavy stuff.

 

[irene_b]

KISS
Keep It Simple! Stupid!
Something I taught all my TI's who were my Den Leaders and Cub Master's...
No matter the age 8-80. Keep it Simple. Who really cared for long drawn out details when you first started?
Details are great as you advance. Myself I try to answer just the question(s).
Irene

 

[Attila Soos]

KISS
Keep It Simple! Stupid!
Something I taught all my TI's who were my Den Leaders and Cub Master's...
No matter the age 8-80. Keep it Simple. Who really cared for long drawn out details when you first started?
Details are great as you advance. Myself I try to answer just the question(s).
Irene

That's the perfect answer.

My uncle is a good example of "too much information". You ask him if he can tell you the time of the day, and he will tell you the whole history of the wrist-watch before giving you the information you want. After the second sentence, you feel like running as fast as you can.

 

[Attila Soos]

I remember when Ryan, Kimura's student, was talking about how the master accepted him as his apprentice. Ryan wrote a letter to Kimura every month, for about two years, before finally being given the chance to learn.

This is what I talking about, when I say that the student has to earn the chance to learn something. You don't just give it to him like it's worth nothing. He needs to try hard long before that happens.

This is what I would like to see on a good bonsai forum: let the student ask and ask, again and again. Then you can bet your life that he will not be offended when you finally tell him what you really think.

 

[Dwight]

This is starting to sound like some of the faculty meetings I used to suffer through. Some fool administrator would stand up front and tell us how we were supposed to inspire the students , how it was our responsability to make them succeede. I always ended up day dreaming about some of these idiots trying to earn a living at ...say GM or Microsoft......right ! It always has been and always will be the students responsability to learn and the teachers responsability to teach. When the student catches up to the teacher then he/she can criticize the teacher for being arrogent or harsh but to start out critizing is simply a way of refusing to learn. I was always worried my students would like me at the end of the first grading perion and not the last. That would mean I had done little teaching and they had done little learning. If they hated me at the end of the first grading period and tolerated me by the end of the course I had probably done something right. Learning is not a popularity contest.

Conversely it is a teachers responsability to present material in a way that the student can actually learn. Hense the value of Moms reminder to KISS. Those of you who attempt to teach those of us who attempt to learn are responsable for TEACHING , we are in turn responsable for LEARNING.

 

[Anonymous User]

I wish I didn't lose two, maybe three years working on that kind of material. I wish somebody had told me over then it was crap, and never was going to be a good bonsai.

.......snip.......

I think if we all say our honest opinion, or give the best advice possible, it would be good for the community.

I agree with you Hans, sometimes the best medicine is the bitterest.

I'm nobody but I do have a third person perspective.

You are a member of this forum, making you exactly equal to everyone else.

Will, you do come across arogant.

While this may be true, it does not necessarily mandate that I am wrong. Many people confuse confidence with arrogance, especially with the written word. Either way does not bother me really, nor should it bother anyone else, my personality flaws, real or imagined, have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. It is usually when the subject can not be debated logically that name calling and personal observations surface. You know, when you can't debate the topic, debate the author.

...I would love it if you told me my stuff was landscape. I would learn. I want honesty. To be able to accept this hard criticism whether it is accurate or not is called humility.

I agree and I feel the same way.

Will

 

[Chris Johnston]

Pretty is as pretty does. Who can receive criticism well enough to take the "bitterest" medicine without tuning out the critic? Even when the criticism is only about the tree, and couched in a respectful way, it is often considered a personal attack.

I like Attila's approach. Give just as much as the n00b can handle, get them to ask for more.

Not sure how to approach those who see themselves as more than beginners.

 

[cubbie]

just my $.02:
i was doing some web surfing one day, found a site (wish i could remember so i could reference it) that showed the famous ficus nerifolia "the cloud". a massive, beautiful, well respected and well known bonsai.

this site also had "baby pictures" of The Cloud: it's beginnings. you know what? they looked exactly like a piece of "crap" sitting on my workbench!!

I met an older gentleman at a club meeting and started to talk..... he said that he didn't have any of the "artsy" talent, but he had some incredible experience in propagation, pests & diseases, growing habits, etc of the trees that grow locally. when i visited his home, his bonsai looked like trees! (ala John Naka????)

once read in another forum somewhere that "true" bonsai artists are Japanese. not sure how many of us are Japanese on this forum??? (not what i think, what i read)

guess i'm trying to say that we all have something to offer..... maybe not right now, but the joy is in the journey.

 

[Vance Wood]

once read in another forum somewhere that "true" bonsai artists are Japanese. not sure how many of us are Japanese on this forum??? (not what i think, what i read)

Probably written by another Japanese, or some beginner who has not looked beyond the books.

 

[rlist]

just my $.02:
i was doing some web surfing one day, found a site (wish i could remember so i could reference it) that showed the famous ficus nerifolia "the cloud". a massive, beautiful, well respected and well known bonsai.

this site also had "baby pictures" of The Cloud: it's beginnings. you know what? they looked exactly like a piece of "crap" sitting on my workbench!!

I met an older gentleman at a club meeting and started to talk..... he said that he didn't have any of the "artsy" talent, but he had some incredible experience in propagation, pests & diseases, growing habits, etc of the trees that grow locally. when i visited his home, his bonsai looked like trees! (ala John Naka????)

once read in another forum somewhere that "true" bonsai artists are Japanese. not sure how many of us are Japanese on this forum??? (not what i think, what i read)

guess i'm trying to say that we all have something to offer..... maybe not right now, but the joy is in the journey.

http://www.artofbonsai.org/galleries/samuels.php