$1400 for a Bonasi!

[coh]

yes I know

I've got trees wired like that (and worse). I've watched the videos, practiced, and can wire pretty well if I really focus on it and have the time. Sometimes I just don't have the time to plan every move, and the result is something like this. It may not look great but at the end of the day, if it accomplishes what I need and doesn't damage the tree...it's alright in my book.

 

[Paradox]

I've got trees wired like that (and worse). I've watched the videos, practiced, and can wire pretty well if I really focus on it and have the time. Sometimes I just don't have the time to plan every move, and the result is something like this. It may not look great but at the end of the day, if it accomplishes what I need and doesn't damage the tree...it's alright in my book.

Yup, that tree isnt going into a show of any sort any time soon so if its not perfect, I dont care as long as it does what Im trying to accomplish.

It takes me so long to wire a tree that I dont have time or the wire to cut it off and rewire the whole thing if it isnt perfect.
I just try to do better the next time.

 

[Adair M]

yes I know. At least I attempted to wire the damn thing and I used copper.

Yeah, you didn’t need to go around the trunk so many times. And then, it looks like you went ahead and used a guy wire to help bring down that first branch.

So, maybe a single heavier wire should have been used. And if it didn’t work by itself, then use a guy. This would have saved you a lot of aggravation, and saved you so much wire!

But, yes, you tried. And, I’m sure you learned something in the effort. Wiring is something that takes practice. The pros make it look easy! And, once you “get it”, it is. But, it’s “a process” to learn.

When I first started going to the Boon Intensives, I “thought” I knew how to wire. Turns out, I had a lot of bad habits, that I had to unlearn. I remember the day, well into my third year of his Intensive classes, that he told me that my wiring was finally good enough that he could begin to teach me how to properly set pads! Lol!!!

That was about 6 years ago. And my wiring has improved immensely since then. It’s a subtle thing... you want to “wire everything”, but you want to use “as little wire as possible”.

I have been fortunate to be able to observe masters like Boon, his Senior Daisaku Nomoto, Tyler Sherrard, Juan Andrade, Adam Jones, etc wire trees. They all apply wire similarly, but each has some subtle techniques they employ for special situations.

Anyway...

Practice, practice, practice!!!

(Sorry yo have taken the thread off topic!)

 

[rockm]

I bought a $650 collected Ponderosa, and lost it 2 years later due to mistakes I made. Once every two or three years, I allow myself to buy one tree in the "under $500" price range. In order to do this I quit doing the once a month $20 to $50 nursery crawl. Stop buying so much cheap junk, save your pennies, and you will be able to afford better material.

My last big purchases were $450 and $150 on imported Satsuki azaleas. Both were 2018. Have not made any recent purchases. Will do again in another year or two.

Been saying this for years. Better starting stock=better bonsai. I stopped making nursery runs a decade ago.

 

[Adair M]

Yup, that tree isnt going into a show of any sort any time soon so if its not perfect, I dont care as long as it does what Im trying to accomplish.

It takes me so long to wire a tree that I dont have time or the wire to cut it off and rewire the whole thing if it isnt perfect.
I just try to do better the next time.

Let’s talk about this... if you don’t like to wire, or spend time wiring, then you shouldn’t have pines! They need to be wired, all the time. Wiring is the time when you really get intimate with the tree. You work with every branch, every twig, practically every bundle of needles! If you want to speed thru that, well, I think you’re missing the best part of keeping pines.
Second, about the “I’m not planning to show the trees, and they’re in my back yard, so who cares how they look” excuse: if you could do the same work, but use less wire, would you? Of course you would. If you wire effectively, and have it look like there is hardly any wire on it, would you? Of course you would. If you knew how. Right?

The problem is, the approach you’re taking is preventing you from learning “How”. You apply some wire. Uh, oh, it doesn’t work. The branch won’t stay where I want it. Rather than study the situation to determine why it doesn’t stay (too thin a piece of wire? Improperly anchored?) you add a second piece of wire. And maybe a third. Did you know that two pieces of thin wire is still not as strong as one larger piece?

So now we have a branch with two or maybe even three pieces of wire that may be improperly anchored, and it looks “over wired”, but is now in an acceptable position. But did you learn anything? Did you learn that maybe using a larger piece would have worked better? Did you learn that rerouting the wire to make a better anchor would work better? I don’t think you did.

So, next time, on the next tree, will you make the same mistakes? Or will you be able to know to choose a larger wire, or route the wire better do it holds better?

I propose that you shift your thinking of “I gotta get this done”, to “let’s enjoy this learning experience”. It it takes a week to wire the tree because you go slowly, plan out the work, fix the mistakes instead of trying to cover them up, your wiring will improve. You’ll find you use less wire. You find that you learn to recognize patterns, and learn the best routing to make good anchors.

Your trees can can you. Enjoy!

 

[Pj86]

$1400 for 8 years of refinement, not a bad asking price. Comes out to be about $15 dollars a month. Can't go cheaper than that.

You can clearly see from the ramification it has been through about 5 years of branch development. Each branch ramification is a complete years worth of work on most single flush pines.

 

[Paradox]

Let’s talk about this... if you don’t like to wire, or spend time wiring, then you shouldn’t have pines! They need to be wired, all the time. Wiring is the time when you really get intimate with the tree. You work with every branch, every twig, practically every bundle of needles! If you want to speed thru that, well, I think you’re missing the best part of keeping pines.
Second, about the “I’m not planning to show the trees, and they’re in my back yard, so who cares how they look” excuse: if you could do the same work, but use less wire, would you? Of course you would. If you wire effectively, and have it look like there is hardly any wire on it, would you? Of course you would. If you knew how. Right?

The problem is, the approach you’re taking is preventing you from learning “How”. You apply some wire. Uh, oh, it doesn’t work. The branch won’t stay where I want it. Rather than study the situation to determine why it doesn’t stay (too thin a piece of wire? Improperly anchored?) you add a second piece of wire. And maybe a third. Did you know that two pieces of thin wire is still not as strong as one larger piece?

So now we have a branch with two or maybe even three pieces of wire that may be improperly anchored, and it looks “over wired”, but is now in an acceptable position. But did you learn anything? Did you learn that maybe using a larger piece would have worked better? Did you learn that rerouting the wire to make a better anchor would work better? I don’t think you did.

So, next time, on the next tree, will you make the same mistakes? Or will you be able to know to choose a larger wire, or route the wire better do it holds better?

I propose that you shift your thinking of “I gotta get this done”, to “let’s enjoy this learning experience”. It it takes a week to wire the tree because you go slowly, plan out the work, fix the mistakes instead of trying to cover them up, your wiring will improve. You’ll find you use less wire. You find that you learn to recognize patterns, and learn the best routing to make good anchors.

Your trees can can you. Enjoy!

I didnt say the tree would never be shown. I said it wasnt going to be any time soon.

Yes I know my wiring skills suck and yes I did use too much wire on that tree, However I am not going to remove all that wire and take another 3-4 days to do it over again.
I dont have the time and I dont have the funds to buy endless supplies of wire just to cut it all off and redo it 100 times for each tree each year. I just try to do better the next time.
I wish I could go do Boons intensives but I dont have the time nor the funds to fly to California 3-4 times a year to do them.

As for the larger wire. I can only reliably bend about size 6 or 8. Any thicker than that and I cant bend it properly to make it work. I end up with large uneven loops of wire around the branch and it doesnt do what it needs to do. Ive tried, it never comes out right so I sometimes have to use 2 strands of smaller wire to do the job if the branch is thick. And yes I stand up while wiring because you get better leverage on the wire and I have a adjustable height stand so I can put it at the right height. My hands simply arent strong enough to bend the thicker guages.

And yes I still find wiring frustrating at times. I have to be not over tired to do it or it just becomes a mess. I watch others when I can and I try to do better the next time. Thats all I can do.
Yes I know wiring is a necessity with pines. I enjoy pines too much to give up on them because of wiring. Eventually Ill get there I hope.

 

[coh]

I've never used any wire heavier than 6 gauge (do they even sell anything larger? like #4?). It is definitely tough to work with 6 or 8, especially on smaller trees or in tight spaces. You have to use leverage to your advantage which for me means, leaving the wire a bit longer than needed and using that length as the leverage - then just cutting off the excess when done. It seems a bit wasteful but I've got a big bucket of copper that will go to a recycler at some point. Ryan does talk about (and demonstrate) this a fair amount on his videos - there may be a free wiring video or two that would be worth checking out if you're not a member.

Otherwise @Paradox , I'm in the same boat. I still work (though admittedly part time) and have other things clamoring for my time. Plus I have too many trees. So I try to do my best when wiring but if things turn out a bit messy, I'm not going to do it all over. Sometimes I will remove a piece of wire that just didn't work as hoped and try again, sometimes not. I just try to figure out what went wrong and keep it in mind for the next time.

 

[Adair M]

I didnt say the tree would never be shown. I said it wasnt going to be any time soon.

Yes I know my wiring skills suck and yes I did use too much wire on that tree, However I am not going to remove all that wire and take another 3-4 days to do it over again.
I dont have the time and I dont have the funds to buy endless supplies of wire just to cut it all off and redo it 100 times for each tree each year. I just try to do better the next time.
I wish I could go do Boons intensives but I dont have the time nor the funds to fly to California 3-4 times a year to do them.

As for the larger wire. I can only reliably bend about size 6 or 8. Any thicker than that and I cant bend it properly to make it work. I end up with large uneven loops of wire around the branch and it doesnt do what it needs to do. Ive tried, it never comes out right so I sometimes have to use 2 strands of smaller wire to do the job if the branch is thick. And yes I stand up while wiring because you get better leverage on the wire and I have a adjustable height stand so I can put it at the right height. My hands simply arent strong enough to bend the thicker guages.

And yes I still find wiring frustrating at times. I have to be not over tired to do it or it just becomes a mess. I watch others when I can and I try to do better the next time. Thats all I can do.
Yes I know wiring is a necessity with pines. I enjoy pines too much to give up on them because of wiring. Eventually Ill get there I hope.

Gauge 6 is pretty big. I have some 4, but I hardly ever use it. It doesn’t look like gauge 6 would have been necessary for your tree.

Applying the heavy gauges (actually any gauge) is easier if the hand spinning the wire is not right on the branch. Hold the wire 6 inches back, and spin from there. Your other hand, however, should be holding the branch and the wire as it’s spun around the branch. To make some spins, I sometimes have to grab the wire with my Jin pliers to get the leverage necessary to tighten the spiral.

Anyway, no sense in beating a dead horse. When you’ve calmed down, go back and reread my advice. I didn’t write any of this to “attack” you, or try to demean you in any way. I’m trying to help you. You don’t have to rewire anything 100 times! But, sometimes? Even now, I’ll wire something, and I find it didn’t work like I thought. So, I’ll remove it, and figure out a new way.

One trick I use is to have a thin 1mm piece of aluminum to use as a test piece. Let’s say I’m trying to wire branch A to branch B, but there’s wire in between, and I don’t want to cross wires. And sometimes I’ll take that little piece of aluminum and run a test to see if I can wire those two together. Then I can unspin the aluminum and straighten it back out. It sure beats wasting a good piece of copper!

 

[Adair M]

I've never used any wire heavier than 6 gauge (do they even sell anything larger? like #4?). It is definitely tough to work with 6 or 8, especially on smaller trees or in tight spaces. You have to use leverage to your advantage which for me means, leaving the wire a bit longer than needed and using that length as the leverage - then just cutting off the excess when done. It seems a bit wasteful but I've got a big bucket of copper that will go to a recycler at some point. Ryan does talk about (and demonstrate) this a fair amount on his videos - there may be a free wiring video or two that would be worth checking out if you're not a member.

Otherwise @Paradox , I'm in the same boat. I still work (though admittedly part time) and have other things clamoring for my time. Plus I have too many trees. So I try to do my best when wiring but if things turn out a bit messy, I'm not going to do it all over. Sometimes I will remove a piece of wire that just didn't work as hoped and try again, sometimes not. I just try to figure out what went wrong and keep it in mind for the next time.

My neighbor, whose back porch and deck overlooks my bonsai garden, was asking me about my watering habits and such. And I mentioned that soon, I’m going to be busy unwiring and wiring all the trees. And he said, “you know, I would never have known those trees were wired, until you showed me the wire in them”.

That’s the goal.

 

[Paradox]

Gauge 6 is pretty big. I have some 4, but I hardly ever use it. It doesn’t look like gauge 6 would have been necessary for your tree.

Applying the heavy gauges (actually any gauge) is easier if the hand spinning the wire is not right on the branch. Hold the wire 6 inches back, and spin from there. Your other hand, however, should be holding the branch and the wire as it’s spun around the branch. To make some spins, I sometimes have to grab the wire with my Jin pliers to get the leverage necessary to tighten the spiral.

Anyway, no sense in beating a dead horse. When you’ve calmed down, go back and reread my advice. I didn’t write any of this to “attack” you, or try to demean you in any way. I’m trying to help you. You don’t have to rewire anything 100 times! But, sometimes? Even now, I’ll wire something, and I find it didn’t work like I thought. So, I’ll remove it, and figure out a new way.

One trick I use is to have a thin 1mm piece of aluminum to use as a test piece. Let’s say I’m trying to wire branch A to branch B, but there’s wire in between, and I don’t want to cross wires. And sometimes I’ll take that little piece of aluminum and run a test to see if I can wire those two together. Then I can unspin the aluminum and straighten it back out. It sure beats wasting a good piece of copper!

Im not riled up Adair. Not at all. And I know youre not attacking me.
Youre doing what you always do and I know youre just trying to teach.
If I sound irritated, its because of something else that happened today and it must have came out in my post.

I just try to do the best I can and yes I have used the thinner piece of aluminum wire trick.

I think its guage 8 is the largest I can handle sometimes (dont remember atm); 10 is better though. I use 10 alot.

 

[coh]

My neighbor, whose back porch and deck overlooks my bonsai garden, was asking me about my watering habits and such. And I mentioned that soon, I’m going to be busy unwiring and wiring all the trees. And he said, “you know, I would never have known those trees were wired, until you showed me the wire in them”.

That’s the goal.

I'm not debating the goal here, just saying I don't always have the time or desire to re-do wire that goes a little off the rails. It still works and my trees aren't going into any shows in the near future. If I get one to that point I'll certainly spend all the time needed to make the wiring as good as possible, even getting help from others if needed.

As for the neighbor anecdote...chances are my neighbors wouldn't notice wire on most of my trees either, unless I pointed it out - even though it's nowhere near as neat and clean as your wiring. Copper blends in pretty well (especially on conifers) unless you really go nuts. Black aluminum on deciduous, that might be another matter...

 

[shinmai]

most casual enthusiasts will be quick to say its far too much for a tree because most casual enthusiasts will rarely spend over $50.
$175-$300 what trees have you bought at that price? do you have pics
only asking out of curiousity..

Sorry to be slow in responding. I have adopted the same approach that Leo described. I have stopped buying, save for one good tree per year. Here’s this year’s adoptee, a Japanese import. I think it was $750 with shipping.

The cultivar is Karenko, and the tree is about 15 inches tall and 22 inches wide. The trunk is just under 3 inches at the soil line.

 

[BobbyLane]

Sorry to be slow in responding. I have adopted the same approach that Leo described. I have stopped buying, save for one good tree per year. Here’s this year’s adoptee, a Japanese import. I think it was $750 with shipping.
View attachment 323891View attachment 323892View attachment 323893
The cultivar is Karenko, and the tree is about 15 inches tall and 22 inches wide. The trunk is just under 3 inches at the soil line.

its pretty

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@shinmai
Rick, that is one lovely Satsuki. I really like it. Nice. The flower colors are subtle and exquisite.