1st Cascade styling effort

mak9

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Hi all, I liked the potential I saw in this tree at the nursery but I lack experience. Living in this zone, I'm not sure of timing for trimming, styling and repotting and I thought it best I ask for help before... stop me before I assault another tree!!! start with the foolish mistakes. šŸ¤”

Branch #2 splits and climbs and I'm not sure what to do with it. Branch #1 needs to be pulled down but I don't know how close to the 1st bend I need to start the downward sweep - or how much the branch can take (it's winter - 28 degrees F at night and 18% humidity.)

I'm a rank beginner with no tools or wire even - are there best sources for both? (or at least a few places I'd do better to avoid buying from?)

Here's the tree. Let me know if you need more info and thanks so much in advance.

274707
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Perfect, well almost perfect. The trunk leaves the soil slanted to the right, for a classic cascade the cascading branch should come off the right side of the trunk and cascade down.

However you can use that left branch, I probably would. It will create some tension with it's movement contradicting the initial movement of the trunk.
 

mak9

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Hi Leo - thanks! Issue for me is the left branch (#2, going up/left) splits. Better if I could get some trimming done first. Not sure about keeping the front of the two where it splits but I need to offer a clearer shot to get help with it.

When can I wire, how thick a wire do I need for the cascade branch and how close to the acute bend do I take the wire before I risk separating bark from cambium? A volunteer at the House of Bonsai took my son under her wing (he's suffering from brain cancer and she did a good thing šŸ„°) and helped him pick out a 6" Nana and showed him how to trim and wire the tree (last week) - so I'm wondering if the Prostrata will tolerate trimming and wiring now or best to get plans and tools in place and do it come Spring (like to repot it then, though as well)
 

Orion_metalhead

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I think that second branch you see as a problem is a blessing. For your drawing, I would determine which is the thicker branch and use that as the main trunk line - I can't tell which is thicker from this picture - and use the other as the first branch in your design. You can twist up the main trunk line a bit if you have thick copper as well to add interest and movement. I like the tree angling off to the left more than the right.

Wire size depends on the branch thickness. For the main trunk, you'll likely need a thicker copper, maybe #8 or #6. The finer branches #12 or #14. If you take a piece of wire and push down on the branch you want to wire with it, it shouldn't 'give', it should push the branch down without bending itself, but you want to use the smallest wire you can.

You can get all this stuff online. I order aluminum wire online and use that for wiring trees in to pots and other miscellaneous uses. I try to copper on the trees themselves - stronger, better turns, prettier, etc. I just buy wire in Home Depot and Lowes. I've started making friends with the department managers and buy the end of their rolls and cull wire on the cheap for bigger sizes and break it down. You can buy the thicker #8, #6, and #4 even as short lengths in Home Depot or Lowes in their electrical dept. Ask the person to cut you Solid copper ground wire. For the branches and finer wiring, I have shifted to using solid copper. I buy the small 50ft rolls of THHN solid wire at Home depot for $10-$15. You can get sizes #14-#12. They come with a colored sheath which you can leave on or cut off. For your size tree, this should be fine to hold your smaller branches. Unfortunately size #10 they don't sell in a convenient manner however, if you buy 10-2 or 10-3 residential wire, you can cut it out of the spool. 25ft of 10-2 will cost you $30 but you get two #10 wires with a #10 Ground so 75ft of #10 for that. It's a little cheaper than buying it online and readily available instead of waiting around for it in the mail. Also, I find removing the jacket rewarding. I find I take more time to apply the wire now, knowing that I worked a little harder to get a nice run of copper.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Copper wire from a big box stores or electrical supply house is NOT annealed sufficiently for bonsai use. It is not "soft as butter", you will tend to year or break branches. If you are new to attempting to wire, you need the softer wire. Copper for electrical use needs to be annealed a second time. Not hard to do, but a little tricky. Too hot and the wire gets brittle. You want to heat the wire to a dull red glow, then cool slowly. Do not quench in water or snow, as you can get a brittle results.

I prefer to buy my wire from Jim Gremel, search Gremel Bonsai. Julian Adams has good wire too.

Timing, winter is a good time for wiring. Winter only light pruning. (Light = less than 25% total volume) Heavy pruning is done in summer.

Actually, for my first decade of bonsai I only used aluminum wire. The diameter of the aluminum needs to be close to the diameter of the branch you are bending. But aluminum is cheap. Easy to use. But it from Stone Lantern Bonsai Supplies and Books. Or any bonsai Supply place.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@Orion_metalhead
You must have strong fingers, stronger than mine if you can use Home Depot wire and not tear branches. If it works for you, keep doing it. But I prefer softer annealed wire. I wired a pine recently, took 2 days about 6 hours each. My hands ached for a week afterwards.
 

Orion_metalhead

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Must be these bass hands! I actually feel that I am less likely to break branches, because the heavier wire makes it more difficult to overtighten around branches. It also means a smaller gauge holds harder so where you may originally have needed #6 you can get away with #8 or #10. With the thicker gauges, I leave myself some extra length for leverage. For really fine branches, I still use smaller aluminum occasionally. Just depends on what I'm doing.
 

Tieball

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Iā€™m assuming you have or are going to research pruning, cutting, substrate and keeping the tree healthy where you live......perhaps before you go on a buying splurge for bonsai related supplies.
 

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Just because the tree is planted at that angle now does not mean it always has to be. If you are looking at cascade try tilting the tree to the left. Not only stops the initial trunk movement going too far right but also brings those main branches down to cascade so less bending to do.
prostrata.PNG
I couldn't rotate this photo quite enough but should give you the idea. Tip it a bit further to get the best initial trunk angle then worry about the trunk. If you need to remove a couple of roots to get this rotation that should not be a problem for a juniper.

re 2 branches: Taper is an important part of any bonsai, including cascade. Where there are branches there is usually an opportunity to prune to reduce size and to induce taper. I think I'd remove the thickest of those and retain the thinner to make taper. The thinner one will also bend easier so you can put some movement into the cascading part. The current change of angle may even be good as straight lines are often not very appealing. Occasional bends up or out can be good on cascade trunks.
It may seem like you are cutting off half the tree but we sometimes need to step backward to go forward longer term.
Junipers bend quite well. I've seen plenty of extreme bends put into junipers but that takes special technique and you won't need that here. Winter is a good time to bend junipers as the bark is less likely to slip when the tree is less active.

Wire thickness needs to match the stiffness of the wood you want to bend. There's no formula, just experience. You can get some idea by flexing the branch with fingers then bend a similar length of wire to see if they feel similar. If wire bends far easier it probably won't hold the branch in place. Some decry the use of a second wire to add holding power but I find that it works well so don't be frightened to add a second wire if the first doesn't do the job. Oversized wire is difficult to apply and can cause snapped branches.
 

Tieball

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Also. Look at the tree from many angles with critical thoughts about what you see. Slowly turn it around. Clean slate. Just because a branch hangs out doesnā€™t mean itā€™s going to make a terrific cascade. Move it around a lot. Photograph it at all turns. Plain light background of white or close to white would be best. The camera may show you something youā€™re missing. Itā€™s worth the effort....and good for learning. Iā€™ve done this a lot with trees in early development and really surprised at what I find. My initial thoughts, with some photo coaxing, are often changed.
 

mak9

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Boy, where do I start? :)

research pruning, cutting, substrate and keeping the tree healthy where you live

A gentle rebuke outlives a thousand compliments. Thank you Tieball. The closest Bonsai club familiar with this Zone is a club in Phoenix and I need to join.

I think that second branch you see as a problem is a blessing. For your drawing, I would determine which is the thicker branch and use that as the main trunk line

With closer study, I see the split rises off the main trunk line which will provide tremendous foliage as the sweep rises to the lip of the pot. A blessing, indeed.

I take more time to apply the wire now, knowing that I worked a little harder to get a nice run of copper.

The cascade trunk is so stiff near the first acute bend - Do I start the wire lower, on the main trunk before the split to the cascade trunk? I want to start the bend ~ 2" beyond the acute bend but I wonder if I can still get the desired steepness into the cascade without such an acute bend so near the elbow. It would help to have the appropriate pot so I can assess the angles. I still don't know what angle to set the main trunk or if the pot will need to be tilted. (forgive the out loud thinking... I don't even have my questions clear yet.)

Timing, winter is a good time for wiring. Winter only light pruning. (Light = less than 25% total volume) Heavy pruning is done in summer.

Thanks! - I'd like to the get the trees ready for Spring repotting - my son has a brain tumor and yesterday was the start to 6 weeks of radiation therapy - 120 miles a day, 5 days a week - I don't want to hurry the trees but, tbh, we are both so excited to have them here and we see so much potential in them every day, it's hard to stay hands-off if we can absolutely avoid it. This has been really good for Sean - my son. He's been through a lot the last two years.

Buy it from Stone Lantern Bonsai Supplies and Books.
Leo, thanks for the pointer. I see a sufficient tool/supplies kit can be pricey - so every little bit helps.

Tip it a bit further to get the best initial trunk angle then worry about the trunk. If you need to remove a couple of roots to get this rotation that should not be a problem for a juniper.

Shibui, thank you so much for your help. Tipped a little more... Would you use a tipped-pot presentation or vertical with the main trunk nearly vertical? It's going to be in a nursery pot until Spring so I don't know the roots yet. It appears it will need work to develop good Nebari but I haven't cleared any soil from the top to see what's hidden.

Winter is a good time to bend junipers as the bark is less likely to slip when the tree is less active.

This comforts me. I don't believe I'll need anything extreme with this stock - but knowing I can slowly begin structural first styling now, without unnecessarily troubling the tree allows me to move forward.

Also. Look at the tree from many angles with critical thoughts about what you see.

Again, Tieball - my thanks. With my son's cancer still so aggressive, distraction is an issue and your insight is really useful. I did just that today - just sat with the tree awhile and it was like starting to get to know it... does that sound weird? I actually began to see more clearly and I started to relax. We did a very little bit of trimming, which helped see better.

Many thanks to you all - you all put smiles on our faces. šŸ„°
 

Orion_metalhead

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@mak9 first, all the best for your son!

I am styling a juniper tonight which you may find a useful comparison, i will take pictures and tag you. I will show you my wiring and thought process.

Here is my rough stock:

20191218_183701.jpg

Here is my intent:
20191218_183753.jpg
 

mak9

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@mak9 first, all the best for your son!

I am styling a juniper tonight which you may find a useful comparison, i will take pictures and tag you. I will show you my wiring and thought process.

Here is my rough stock:
Brilliant Orion! And thanks for the well wishes - he uses them well. šŸ¤Ŗish... :) It would be huge to watch your progress - include as much detail as you like - i'm in "sponge-mode". šŸ¤£
 

Shibui

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Tipped a little more... Would you use a tipped-pot presentation or vertical with the main trunk nearly vertical? It's going to be in a nursery pot until Spring so I don't know the roots yet. It appears it will need work to develop good Nebari but I haven't cleared any soil from the top to see what's hidden.
Not sure what you mean by 'tipped pot presentation'
Cascade can be grown in taller vertical containers, in shorter containers or in 'half moon' pots where the tree comes out one side of the pot. Choice of pot will depend on the final shape of the tree and your preferences.
You can style the tree as it is in the pot it is in while bearing in mind that it will eventually be planted at a new angle. During styling it is common to put a wedge under one side of the pot to tilt it to the desired angle to get better view. Some bonsai turntables are equipped with tiedowns and hinged tops so pots can be held at desired angle while pruning and bending.
After any work just return the pot to current vertical orientation o it can be watered properly. Your cascade will stick out to 1 side but will actually grow better for it until you get round to repotting at the desired angle.

As you are new to this you probably don't yet understand the complications of cascade style. For a start, the top parts will usually grow far better than the lowest part so you need to constantly thin and prune any growth near the top or the cascade section gradually weakens and can die. Cascade style and literati both look easy but are actually quite hard to pull off a really good bonsai.

Always start with the roots with any bonsai styling. No good designing a well proportioned tree then finding that the first roots are way down in the bottom of the pot so you actually have a much longer trunk. Not saying this one will have that but I have seen it.
Junipers typically are not designed around nebari like maples and pines are so don't fret too much about roots. Where they grow in rocky areas the roots often can't spread out so lack of nebari is not really considered a fault - nice but not essential for juniper bonsai.
 

Silentrunning

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If you are just starting out I have a suggestion for you. Go on eBay and look up Bonsai Books. You will find many books in the $3 to $7 range with free shipping. Also, see if you can find a local club. The better you get at bonsai, the more you will enjoy it.
 

mak9

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'tipped pot presentation'
I only saw one but it was so radical, it stuck with me. It was a traditional cascade pot tilted about 30 degrees and it was pretty striking. Nothing comes up on Google, though.

As you are new to this you probably don't yet understand the complications of cascade style.

Yes - and the many challenges it already presents may suggest I wait and study before major work.

For a start, the top parts will usually grow far better than the lowest part so you need to constantly thin and prune any growth near the top or the cascade section gradually weakens and can die.

I wonder if doing this while I get more information will strengthen the tree before I start major work. If now is a good time to re-pot this tree, I can prune back the top and also get a better look at the roots.

Thank you Shibui for a very helpful post. I've been deeply interested in Bonsai for 15 years but, living in an apartment in Santa Monica, where I could not keep trees outside, prevented me from owning any that I was certain could thrive. I have climate challenges living out here in the desert, but the trees are outside. I'm not getting any younger and I have to try. :)
 

mak9

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If you are just starting out I have a suggestion for you.
What a very good idea. Thank you for that - I have John Naka's volumes 1 & 2 which are a big help but I could really use a small library on Bonsai.

No local clubs - nearest is down an 80 mile hill (that's the "high" part of High Desert) - and Phoenix (the closest climate to mine) is 250 miles. There's a club in Phoenix with an online presence though - time to join. :)
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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What a very good idea. Thank you for that - I have John Naka's volumes 1 & 2 which are a big help but I could really use a small library on Bonsai.

No local clubs - nearest is down an 80 mile hill (that's the "high" part of High Desert) - and Phoenix (the closest climate to mine) is 250 miles. There's a club in Phoenix with an online presence though - time to join. :)

The John Naka books are excellent for their historic value, great tips on design. The "Materials and Methods" suggested in Naka's books are outdated. Modern substrates are far superior to the granite and topsoil blend Naka recommends. Tools have become more available as has wire. But by and large, Naka's books are still relevant. Understand they are roughly 50 year old books.
 

Shibui

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I've had a further play with my woefully inadequate virt skills to try to convey the image I see.
prostrata3.PNG
Tree has been rotated nearly 90 deg. Initial trunk movement is up and slightly to ward the desired trunk direction which I think is better than initial opposite flow then back.
blue lines show possible existing roots. Obviously when we rotate the tree and replant it so much some of the roots will stick up in the air. You can bend any that are flexible to get them into the new pot but any that are too stiff to bend would be cut off or turned into jin (dead wood). Removing up to half the roots should not unduly upset a pot grown juniper. Obviously, if you find something completely different when you check the roots the plan would have to change.
New trunk line shown in black. Takes advantage of the existing movement from that branch you previously identified as a problem. Existing trunk continuation has been removed to reduce the size of the tree and to create extra taper (assuming the smaller branch is thinner). You would still probably need to add further bends and twists to the original trunk line.
Maroon scribble shows possible future pot.
This is not going to be instant bonsai. Good bonsai rarely is. You'd probably need to look 3-5 years forward to develop new branches and foliage pads.

I only saw one but it was so radical, it stuck with me. It was a traditional cascade pot tilted about 30 degrees and it was pretty striking.
I think that this would create some problems. Watering would be difficult if the pot is like this on the bonsai bench at home and holding it in place at that angle would require some sort of tie downs. Maybe the tree and pot is usually sitting vertical at home and only tilted for a show? That would mean you would not get the same enjoyment of seeing your creation each day unless you tilted the pot or your head each time you walked past. Nice idea and, as you say, striking but maybe not for me anyway.
 
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