2 New Pinus’

Shogun610

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So I got at my secret nursery today a Scots Pine , fairly young but long shoots. Evidence of back budding.
Another pine I don’t see a lot of is a Bosnian Black Pine. Pretty cool it’s growing off to the side and has back buds. Long sharp needles.
question is what would be a good game plan for these two. I planned on just leaving alone or doing some light pruning on more than 2 lateral shoots and longer branches. I will keep interior buds to grow those out.
Wanted to post to see who has good experience with either or
 

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Carol 83

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I know zero about pines, but cute dog!
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Do you know the botanical name of the Bosnian black pine? There's two possible unrelated species that could be called that.

Pinus nigra - European black pine has a geographic race from Bosnia. Pinus nigra is strictly a single flush pine.

Pinus heldreichii - Bosnian pine, in a different sub genus from Pinus nigra. It is listed as very cold hardy, has purple cones. Comes from a subgenus where others are known to revert to juvenile foliage after pruning. Though I know of zero reports on this particular species.
 

Shogun610

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Do you know the botanical name of the Bosnian black pine? There's two possible unrelated species that could be called that.

Pinus nigra - European black pine has a geographic race from Bosnia. Pinus nigra is strictly a single flush pine.

Pinus heldreichii - Bosnian pine, in a different sub genus from Pinus nigra. It is listed as very cold hardy, has purple cones. Comes from a subgenus where others are known to revert to juvenile foliage after pruning. Though I know of zero reports on this particular species.
It is Pinus Leucodermis synonymy for heldreichii
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Do you know the botanical name of the Bosnian black pine? There's two possible unrelated species that could be called that.

Pinus nigra - European black pine has a geographic race from Bosnia. Pinus nigra is strictly a single flush pine.

Pinus heldreichii - Bosnian pine, in a different sub genus from Pinus nigra. It is listed as very cold hardy, has purple cones. Comes from a subgenus where others are known to revert to juvenile foliage after pruning. Though I know of zero reports on this particular species.

One thing to tell nigra apart from most other pines are the insanely huge needles and nigra being bigger in everything compared to scots pines, ponderosa, jack pine, JBP, JRP, or any pine I've ever grown for that matter. In the seedling stage at least. Once they go adult, I find the resemblance to ponderosa pretty striking. Yet the buds of nigra are some of the biggest I've ever seen.
You have probably read about colchicine as a chemical to produce polyploid plants, in essence it halts cell division at a certain stage and causes plants to quadriple (or more) their nucleus. This leads to an increase in plant size. Very popular in violets, that go tiny again if they reproduce asexually for a few years.
When looking at nigra in the wild, there are types that are close to scots pines but coarser and generally larger, and there are types that go the extra mile; needles the size of fore-arms and cones the size of softballs. I always get the feeling they're treated with colchicine. Maybe for timber production after WWII. I might whip out the microscope to check if that's the case in the near future.
The only other European pines that come close when it comes to foliar, bud and cone size are Italian stone pines (P. pinea).

I'm thinking that, at least here in the Netherlands where most P. nigra stock was imported from the Mediterranean "Corsican pines", they might have been hybridized with pinea back in the mediterranean. It would explain both the vigor as well as the variety in size. Since there's natural backcrossing of hybrids taking place, we now get three varieties: Nigra x Nigra, Nigra x Pinea and Pinea x Pinea. This is speculation though, don't pin me down on it. I don't know the compatibility of the two families. The typical pinea juvenile needles are something I've never seen in the wild here, but I would expect them to occur if there are backcrosses that would yield pure pinea. It could very well be that we have different varieties of nigra in the wild, one being regular nigra and the other being the corsican nigra. Or the colchicine option of course.

Now I know this'll spark interest of some of the readers. Even though colchicine is sold medically to treat gout, it's still a carcinogen and it will screw up your cells processes. When I worked with the stuff in the lab, we had to wear extra protection on top of our regular lab gear and even create a separate waste-flow specifically for colchicine. It's not stuff to mess with for fun. And besides that, it makes things bigger.. In general we'd want things in bonsai to be smaller.
 

Shogun610

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He looks like he's wondering why he got in trouble for putting a dirty stick on the table but it's ok for the human to do it! Lol!

Like he's thinking "how the ... am I going to pee on that up there?"

Sorce

That’s my good boy Pete ! He’s my nursery and soon to be field grown/ mountain hunting buddy
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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One thing to tell nigra apart from most other pines are the insanely huge needles and nigra being bigger in everything compared to scots pines, ponderosa, jack pine, JBP, JRP, or any pine I've ever grown for that matter. In the seedling stage at least. Once they go adult, I find the resemblance to ponderosa pretty striking. Yet the buds of nigra are some of the biggest I've ever seen.
You have probably read about colchicine as a chemical to produce polyploid plants, in essence it halts cell division at a certain stage and causes plants to quadriple (or more) their nucleus. This leads to an increase in plant size. Very popular in violets, that go tiny again if they reproduce asexually for a few years.
When looking at nigra in the wild, there are types that are close to scots pines but coarser and generally larger, and there are types that go the extra mile; needles the size of fore-arms and cones the size of softballs. I always get the feeling they're treated with colchicine. Maybe for timber production after WWII. I might whip out the microscope to check if that's the case in the near future.
The only other European pines that come close when it comes to foliar, bud and cone size are Italian stone pines (P. pinea).

I'm thinking that, at least here in the Netherlands where most P. nigra stock was imported from the Mediterranean "Corsican pines", they might have been hybridized with pinea back in the mediterranean. It would explain both the vigor as well as the variety in size. Since there's natural backcrossing of hybrids taking place, we now get three varieties: Nigra x Nigra, Nigra x Pinea and Pinea x Pinea. This is speculation though, don't pin me down on it. I don't know the compatibility of the two families. The typical pinea juvenile needles are something I've never seen in the wild here, but I would expect them to occur if there are backcrosses that would yield pure pinea. It could very well be that we have different varieties of nigra in the wild, one being regular nigra and the other being the corsican nigra. Or the colchicine option of course.

Now I know this'll spark interest of some of the readers. Even though colchicine is sold medically to treat gout, it's still a carcinogen and it will screw up your cells processes. When I worked with the stuff in the lab, we had to wear extra protection on top of our regular lab gear and even create a separate waste-flow specifically for colchicine. It's not stuff to mess with for fun. And besides that, it makes things bigger.. In general we'd want things in bonsai to be smaller.

Colchicine is so old school. Colchicine is preferentially selective for mammalian microtubulin. The protein involved in chromosome separation, causing non-disjuncture of the chromosomes. The "hip" plant kids are using Oryzalin and other plant similar microtubulin inhibitors originally developed as pre-emergence plant herbicides. Much stronger selectivity for plant microtubulin and considerably lower human toxicity. Look for the protocols developed in rice and wheat research, then adjust for what ever plant you are working on. At the "correct" low dose, oryzalin will cause non-disjuncture, with a higher conversion rate to polyploidy than most colchicine protocols. I have not used oryzalin protocol myself, though a lab I used to use to do orchid propagation had worked with it. Old age and disease caused the lab to close, as the principals had to retire for medical reason. So I can not get you the orchid protocol.

oryzalin - CHEMICAL NAME: 3,5-Dinitro-N4,N4-dipropylsulfanilamide (56) TRADE NAME(S): Surflan, Ryzelan, Dirimal (56) there are a whole series of herbicides based on similar chemistry as oryzalin, most work by disrupting cell division, and any of them could be used for the purpose of inducing polyploidy. Getting the right dilution is key. The important point is these herbicides are MUCH less toxic for human exposure. They can be handled safely with less effort, and I believe they have better "break down profiles" in that when the disposed of materials are subjected to light and water and bacteria, they decompose more rapidly into less toxic materials than colchicine.

Have fun tracking this one down.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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Awesome @Leo in N E Illinois !
Thanks!
I personally have no interest in polyploidy induction. I've done colchicine and embryonic heatshock protocols in the past but I don't see the need for anything in my collection. It is good to know that there are alternatives though.
 

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