2 olives I'm considering buying

maroun.c

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Saw these 2 trees at a nursery today. Realize they are a bit too big maybe but I always wanted a huge trunk olive bonsai.
they are to tall for bonsai so don't mind having to chop them but not sure if it would still be possible to develop a leader to follow a trunk this think, or else i would love to go with the style of these trees @Adair M had posted in this thread.
the two trees are very different, first one is a bit smaller in width even at base (around one foot wide I would think)

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2nd one is around 1.5 ft wide at the base
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Both trees have good taper at least from base till mid trunk where I would be chopping I believe, unless if I'm.to.keep one of the big branches as a leader. Please advise on whether these have potential as bonsai and if u would go for them both or if anyone e clearly has better potential.
Thanks.
 

Bonsai Nut

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Make sure you look at the surface roots. These trees look like they don't have any, or they are very limited. With olives you can reduce the trunk back to nothing if you wish, but developing surface roots where there are none will take much longer.
 

BrianBay9

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The second one seems to have more promise. The first has reverse taper very near the soil line.
 

It's Kev

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Make sure you look at the surface roots. These trees look like they don't have any, or they are very limited. With olives you can reduce the trunk back to nothing if you wish, but developing surface roots where there are none will take much longer.

Olives can have surface roots?
 

Shibui

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Reducing either of these will leave a massive stump. Olives grow very slowly so that means either a very long term project or lots of deadwood and carving. Are you up for either or both? Too many beginners jump at the first things they see and regret the choice later. I know there are many better olives out there. Take the time to search.

Olives do produce surface roots. Initially the base of the seedling trunk swells into large 'tuber' with a few deep roots - adaptations to survive in a dry environment. deep roots have access to moisture in dry times and the swollen base can store nutrients and water to survive drought. Many dry land trees use these strategies. After a few years new roots emerge from the swollen stem just under the surface. Most species produce close to surface roots because that's where most of the nutrients are.
Most olives need to be 'flat bottomed' to fit into a shallow bonsai pot. We just cut through the widest part of the swollen stem (with a chainsaw for the larger ones). If the tree has already started to grow surface roots it has a head start with even just a few small roots to help it grow. I have seen many that had no roots at all after the flat bottom operation and survived as a large cutting. Olives are very resilient.
 

maroun.c

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Thanks for all the replies. Those olives have been potted in these pots after removal from soil to be sold as trees, so am sure no attention has been given to surface roots, I could be surprised with some good roots once we take out of the soil but that might just be luck.
At this size I'm not sure if there will be enough space for the tree in a bonsai pot not to mention additional space for roots ( they are around 1-1.5 ft wide)
Indeed I was over taken by the large trunk and didn't give roots enough thought. I don't mind.workjng on the roots.in 2-3 coming repots if that is feasible ( would take years to grow a trunk that thick so it's the same time I guess to work on roots) yet I'm now concerned about the following:
These are massive trees so wont be able.to manipulate easily I guess ?
Not sure I can find a pot this large
Not sure how.to handle the top of the tree as i will need to chop them and regrow so with such a big trunk it'll be years also to develop thick branches to follow that trunk ?
Shibui mentioned a massive reduction, any links to videos or reading on that ? Does this mean a height or width reduction and how to go about that.
As roots are the main issue apparently here ( was more worried about the branches and upper styling honestly) if I decide to go with one of those trees would this be the plan forward.
Take out tree.
Cut base flat trying to.save any roots that can be used.
Add rooting hormone
Pot in some softer soil (coco peat or sphagnum around the base and then soil to encourage roots growth)
Repot every 2 years and work on positioning.roots on the surface to get a nice root flare.
Would this be achievable in 5-6 years

At this rate I get the point of.starting with a better tree with some.surface roots and using the 5-10 years to thicken the trunk on top.of a much better root base.
So,I feel.so far it's best to skip those unless u think that it's only a matter of time and the trunk width is already an big advantage and if I workout the roots this tree has a great potential?
 

Shibui

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I have already said that what little potential these trees have for bonsai is way in the future. I would pass these ones and keep looking.

My experiences of flat cutting the bases of olives has been positive. Occasionally one will die but the vast majority survive.
olives can exist with remarkably few roots for a long time. It often takes 2-3 years for new roots to fill a pot which is far slower than most other species I've worked with.

I agree that the top is also a huge issue. Probably far more of an issue than the roots. Reducing usually means reducing height but we have also been talking about using dead wood to reduce visual width and improve perceived taper so some width reduction is possible in some cases. Your other smaller trees have all had the trunks cut to reduce the height so you know what the results look like. Just multiply the dead stumps you have by 10 to visualise how these might look after trunk reduction. Although olives do bud reliably after trunk chop they are also relatively slow to grow so it can take many years to grow a good top on a stump. The larger the stump, the larger the top needs to be and the longer it will take generally to develop a new canopy. ramification on larger trees also needs to be better to fill out a larger canopy so that takes even longer.
The good thing about larger trees is that it can be easier to hide some faults and problems with form and shape don't always stand out so much.

Larger trees can be challenging. When repotting time comes, can you lift the tree out of the pot to prune roots and replace the potting mix? Can you rotate the pot each week to get sunlight on the back to maintain healthy branches all round? Do you intend to ever show the tree? What sized truck will you need to transport it to show or sale? Growers of large bonsai also cultivate friends and acquaintances with strong arms and backs. My days of even considering large trees are well gone.
Large bonsai pots can be difficult to find and are exponentially more expensive that smaller pots as they seem to be much more difficult to make and fire but don't worry about that yet. You won't need a bonsai pot for either of these for another 10 years or more.
Large trees also take far more time to maintain. There will be far more growing tips on most large trees so trimming can take hours each time. Wiring can take days.
Larger bonsai do look impressive. I enjoy looking at them but you do need to know all the drawbacks before committing to trees like these ones you have found.
 

maroun.c

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I have already said that what little potential these trees have for bonsai is way in the future. I would pass these ones and keep looking.

My experiences of flat cutting the bases of olives has been positive. Occasionally one will die but the vast majority survive.
olives can exist with remarkably few roots for a long time. It often takes 2-3 years for new roots to fill a pot which is far slower than most other species I've worked with.

I agree that the top is also a huge issue. Probably far more of an issue than the roots. Reducing usually means reducing height but we have also been talking about using dead wood to reduce visual width and improve perceived taper so some width reduction is possible in some cases. Your other smaller trees have all had the trunks cut to reduce the height so you know what the results look like. Just multiply the dead stumps you have by 10 to visualise how these might look after trunk reduction. Although olives do bud reliably after trunk chop they are also relatively slow to grow so it can take many years to grow a good top on a stump. The larger the stump, the larger the top needs to be and the longer it will take generally to develop a new canopy. ramification on larger trees also needs to be better to fill out a larger canopy so that takes even longer.
The good thing about larger trees is that it can be easier to hide some faults and problems with form and shape don't always stand out so much.

Larger trees can be challenging. When repotting time comes, can you lift the tree out of the pot to prune roots and replace the potting mix? Can you rotate the pot each week to get sunlight on the back to maintain healthy branches all round? Do you intend to ever show the tree? What sized truck will you need to transport it to show or sale? Growers of large bonsai also cultivate friends and acquaintances with strong arms and backs. My days of even considering large trees are well gone.
Large bonsai pots can be difficult to find and are exponentially more expensive that smaller pots as they seem to be much more difficult to make and fire but don't worry about that yet. You won't need a bonsai pot for either of these for another 10 years or more.
Large trees also take far more time to maintain. There will be far more growing tips on most large trees so trimming can take hours each time. Wiring can take days.
Larger bonsai do look impressive. I enjoy looking at them but you do need to know all the drawbacks before committing to trees like these ones you have found.


Thanks for taking the time and all the explanation, as nice as those trunks are indded makes sense to skip those.
just to answer your questions and not arguing the purchase
When repotting time comes, can you lift the tree out of the pot to prune roots and replace the potting mix?
No both trees are big and I assume to heavy. Plan was to have it flat cut and repoted in the nursery so I can use their saws and get the help of their workers even.

Can you rotate the pot each week to get sunlight on the back to maintain healthy branches all round?
confess this is not something I knew I should do. some of my trees get sun all over but others don't. will start doing this to my other trees. rotating the pot will require help at that level and I doubt when a big tree buds heavily i can get away without shading even if in a well exposed spot.

Do you intend to ever show the tree?
No bonsai community or shows here unfortunately (not that any of my trees is show quality as well to be honest. all my trees are for my own enjoyment and learning and for displaying in my garden.

still if I get a large tree worth the effort I don't mind getting it and relying on Nursury staff support (very close to my place and they sometimes do some maintenance on my small garden anyway)

Again thanks for all the time and excellent explanation. will keep looking and hopefully will find a nicer tree to start with maybe aronud half the size of these and with some roots.
 
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