[201x - ] Olive 1

akhater

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This is the oldest tree I still have alive.
I've had it for the last 4 or 5 years & it is starting to put on "bark" but I never felt it has the "vigor" That should characterize olives not sure why

It was repoted this year (3 few weeks ago)
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Tree today

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I love the tree and feel it has potential but I have no idea how to move forward with it from here
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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To slowly develop a nice olive with lots of movement in its branches, you should do cycles of letting it grow out then cut branches short. Generally, unless a specific plan requires something different, it is important to not have any branches that are long and straight.

A mature tree will have branches that are smaller in diameter, and shorter in length that the straight initial distance between the roots and the first branch. Then like a fractal equation, with each re-interation of the calculation the distance gets shorter and shorter.

So use the distance from the nebari (base of trunk, beginning of roots) to the first branch as distance X. Then the first branch have no segment longer than roughly 2/3rds X. the next degree of ramification should have straight branches no longer than 2/3rds of their parent branch's longest straight length X1, and each subsequent degree of ramification the straight distance between branches should get shorter and shorter by a factor of 2/3rds. This is a generic formula, trees in the wild seem to ''generally'' follow this, or at least the human eye seems to see this, and find it attractive. AS ALWAYS, if you have a specific plan that does not follow this, go with your plan. But if you don't know what to do, this generic plan, combined with the fact that the olive tree will not do exactly what you want it to do, will result in an attractive tree. Even using a ''generic'' formula, when done the tree, will almost never look ''formulaic''.

Second trick, at few or no points, should you have more than a trunk and one branch, or a branch forking into 2 branches. Triplets and other arrangements should be reduced to 2, unless a branch is necessary to fill an empty space and there are no buds to potentially replace it. Going through and removing excess branches will really clean up the tree.

Lastly, I would identify the ''main trunk line'', and then remove any branches that are more than 50% of the diameter of the main trunk line. You can let ''sub-trunks'' be larger than 50% of the main trunk, but in general if branches are much greater than 50% the diameter of the main trunk or their origin on the sub-trunk, the tree image becomes more of a ''shrub'' image. Shrubs have branches and trunks of similar diameter. Often a mature bonsai will have none of its original branches that were present when styling was started. Very mature trees will regularly have overly large diameter branches removed to be replaced by younger, less than 50% diameter of the trunk branches.

So following the 3 ''formula guides'' you can train just about any tree. And as always if you have an artistic reason for ignoring these guidelines, you should. But if you do not know what you should do, these guides will help turn out an interesting tree.

Depending on how quickly your olive grows, you may allow it to grow out, then prune more than once a growing season. Let new branches extend, develop at least 6 or more pairs of leaves, let the first couple pairs of leaves harden off. Then go through the tree and prune everything short according to either the formula or your artistic needs. If you want a certain area to not add size, cut back to just past the first pair of leaves. If you want more extension, cut back to 2/3rds of the previous segment. Then when new branches form from the buds will give you a nice zig-zag pattern.

You might be able to cut back 2 or 3 times a year, or as little as once a year. Let the olive tree's actual growth guide how often you prune.
 

akhater

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@Leo in N E Illinois thank you for the detailed reply, I really appreciate your time, you do know olives well :)

As I said in my first post I feel it lacks vigor and I really don't know why, it is in a well draining soil and it gets fertilized frequently but still I feel it is more like just "sitting there"

For the design part, and assuming it was your tree, can you please tell me where would you cut? I am trying to find a tree inside this but I feel it is slipping away :)

Thanks again
 

Anthony

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Akhater,
Feels as though, it needs to free grow for a few years.

Yes, we have olives here [ seed 1986 ]

Normally we leave branches to just lengthen say 20 leaves and then
cut back. Small leaf type.
Good Day
Anthony


oleo.jpg
 

akhater

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Sometimes after repotting with serious root work it may take a tree a couple growing seasons to recover. If it is growing, even just slowly, it will probably be okay. Just keep your horticulture consistent.

Akhater,
Feels as though, it needs to free grow for a few years.

Which begs the question... Am I repotting way too often? when you say "couple of growing seans" and "free grow for a few years"

I repot some trees every spring and max every other year

:confused:
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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You are in Lebanon, a Mediterranean climate with some cold weather in winter. Where you are, is likely frost free 250 or more days a year. I live near Chicago, USA. I have between 110 and 150 frost free days a year. Your growing season might be 3-4 months longer than mine. So keep climate differences in mind as I offer suggestions.

In nature, there are many occurances where branches or leaves get lost, bent, broken or pruned off. This is a frequent occurrence, the natural causes are wind, browsing by goats & other animals, insect infestations, drought. In nature very seldom are roots disturbed. Only drought, earthquake and landslide really disturb the roots, with drought being the most common. So repotting a tree, and cutting the roots is traumatic for a tree. They need time to recover if they are to grow well.

For my climate, I try to repot once every 3 to 5 years. Every year is simply too frequent, except for a few very few rapid growing trees. Older tress slow down, repot less often. For my pines and junipers, I use a mostly inorganic potting media, that is more than 50% pumice, which does not break down. I have some pines I have not repotted for 10 or more years,, at least one juniper, has not been repotted for over 10 years. This is not a problem for slower growing trees.

My younger deciduous trees I try to repot every 3 to 5 years, my Malus - crab apple, also my maples, persimmons, & hornbeams (Carpinus) and flowering quince (Chaenomeles) and azalea. If you repot too often they don't grow well.

My fastest growing trees, such as elms, and willow and Ficus, I try to repot every 2 years. This is done in part to slow down growth.

My climate is cold enough, with short enough summers that there are zero trees I need to repot every year. I do repot if there are accidents,, a tree falling off the bench and breaking the pot is one such accident.

Because you said your olive is growing slow, try skipping a season or two of repotting. As long as your potting mix drains freely, you don't absolutely have to repot. Observe whether the second season in the same mix gives you better growth.

Experiment. Take notes & photos, for yourself. See if my suggestion helps.
 

akhater

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20190415_090603.jpg
This morning gift ☺ are these flowers?
 

akhater

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Akhater,
Feels as though, it needs to free grow for a few years.

Yes, we have olives here [ seed 1986 ]

Normally we leave branches to just lengthen say 20 leaves and then
cut back. Small leaf type.
Good Day
Anthony

Thank you for sharing your experience, much appreciated.

Why does it need to be grown for a few years? I want a small shohin sized tree out of this one and the trunk is of a pretty decent size for a small tree no?

To slowly develop a nice olive with lots of movement in its branches, you should do cycles of letting it grow out then cut branches short. Generally, unless a specific plan requires something different, it is important to not have any branches that are long and straight.

A mature tree will have branches that are smaller in diameter, and shorter in length that the straight initial distance between the roots and the first branch. Then like a fractal equation, with each re-interation of the calculation the distance gets shorter and shorter.

So use the distance from the nebari (base of trunk, beginning of roots) to the first branch as distance X. Then the first branch have no segment longer than roughly 2/3rds X. the next degree of ramification should have straight branches no longer than 2/3rds of their parent branch's longest straight length X1, and each subsequent degree of ramification the straight distance between branches should get shorter and shorter by a factor of 2/3rds. This is a generic formula, trees in the wild seem to ''generally'' follow this, or at least the human eye seems to see this, and find it attractive. AS ALWAYS, if you have a specific plan that does not follow this, go with your plan. But if you don't know what to do, this generic plan, combined with the fact that the olive tree will not do exactly what you want it to do, will result in an attractive tree. Even using a ''generic'' formula, when done the tree, will almost never look ''formulaic''.

Second trick, at few or no points, should you have more than a trunk and one branch, or a branch forking into 2 branches. Triplets and other arrangements should be reduced to 2, unless a branch is necessary to fill an empty space and there are no buds to potentially replace it. Going through and removing excess branches will really clean up the tree.

Lastly, I would identify the ''main trunk line'', and then remove any branches that are more than 50% of the diameter of the main trunk line. You can let ''sub-trunks'' be larger than 50% of the main trunk, but in general if branches are much greater than 50% the diameter of the main trunk or their origin on the sub-trunk, the tree image becomes more of a ''shrub'' image. Shrubs have branches and trunks of similar diameter. Often a mature bonsai will have none of its original branches that were present when styling was started. Very mature trees will regularly have overly large diameter branches removed to be replaced by younger, less than 50% diameter of the trunk branches.

So following the 3 ''formula guides'' you can train just about any tree. And as always if you have an artistic reason for ignoring these guidelines, you should. But if you do not know what you should do, these guides will help turn out an interesting tree.

Depending on how quickly your olive grows, you may allow it to grow out, then prune more than once a growing season. Let new branches extend, develop at least 6 or more pairs of leaves, let the first couple pairs of leaves harden off. Then go through the tree and prune everything short according to either the formula or your artistic needs. If you want a certain area to not add size, cut back to just past the first pair of leaves. If you want more extension, cut back to 2/3rds of the previous segment. Then when new branches form from the buds will give you a nice zig-zag pattern.

You might be able to cut back 2 or 3 times a year, or as little as once a year. Let the olive tree's actual growth guide how often you prune.
wow thank you for the long answer, highly useful and appreciated. unfortunately I am not sure I understood each section of your reply :) I was re-reading it this morning trying to figure out where to start from and I got lost and I don't exactly know where to start from. kind of afraid to cut something now and regret it later

You are in Lebanon, a Mediterranean climate with some cold weather in winter. Where you are, is likely frost free 250 or more days a year. I live near Chicago, USA. I have between 110 and 150 frost free days a year. Your growing season might be 3-4 months longer than mine. So keep climate differences in mind as I offer suggestions.
Very valid point on the growing season, thank you for clarifying this
 
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Thank you for sharing your experience, much appreciated.

Why does it need to be grown for a few years? I want a small shohin sized tree out of this one and the trunk is of a pretty decent size for a small tree no?

I believe Anthony was referring to the fact that you were complaining that your olive lacks vigor. He was suggesting that you should let it alone and grow for some time it regain vigor. He was not referring to size or thickness of the tree.
 

Housguy

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After it grows for a few years, then you can cut it back to the size of the tree you want.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@akhater
My post was a bit long. And probably confusing. Re-read my post again, not thinking about your tree, but a generic seedling. If it makes sense, then look at your tree.

I am trying to be encouraging. It is difficult to get a good visual from a photo. I probably would see better options if I saw the tree in person.

My post might be hard to understand, because going only from the photos, I would probably cut this tree back severely, possibly to just a short segment of trunk.

But I don't claim to be a "artist", I'm good with horticultural skills, I'm not the most inspired of artists. So don't take it personally. But you have branches that are too large in diameter. I chop it to just a short segment of trunk and start all over again.

So I really don't want to discourage you, because I do not have a good vision for this tree other than starting over. Let others give you ideas. If you like them, go with their plans.
 

akhater

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Screenshot_20190507-090624_Brave.jpg
Looking back at it, I think I like this as a front, it shows taper and some leaning movement...

however the bulge on the left is kind of bothering me.

Chop at the red lines maybe ?
 

Ali Raza

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Well I am learning more about Olive now. I got one Olive plant intended to be good bonsai someday. I repotted it few months ago, and having same problem as you mentioned vigor. I will let it to grow for couple of years, also it will help to thicken the trunk.
 
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