2021 National Bonsai Exhibition - Sept 11-12

[Carol 83]

It's a shame that a thread about an awesome event has to turn into a shit-show with people name calling etc. It's not even winter yet and people are already awfully testy.

 

[Cable]

I think my biggest worry is... who will do this if Bill can't?

You could see that Bjorn was "practicing" to take over. Perfect time to do it, too, during this off year.

 

[Paradox]

Well if Bjorn is the chosen one, and that would make sense, we can look forward to many years of bonsai expositions to come.

At the moment, I can't think of anyone else on the east coast that would be better

 

[Mikecheck123]

You could see that Bjorn was "practicing" to take over. Perfect time to do it, too, during this off year.

Shouldn't he have to box Ryan Neil for it?

 

[Shogun610]

Shouldn't he have to box Ryan Neil for it?

Yes , and bare knuckle

 

[Shogun610]

I personally all jokes aside think the US National should never leave Rochester since that’s where it all started. However I really really think the shows leading up to it in the west coast like what Jonas and those guys are doing , along with the Kannapolis show here in the east … could be like the AFC/ NFC championship of Bonsai shows… the trees have to be chosen and selected from those shows by winning or being picked before making it to the Super Bowl in Rochester…

 

[Shogun610]

Shouldn't he have to box Ryan Neil for it?

Am I opening up a can of worms (not beneficial nematodes ) by asking …… do they get along?

 

[Mikecheck123]

Am I opening up a can of worms (not beneficial nematodes ) by asking …… do they get along?

Haha. I'm sure they do. The actual feud is between Bjorn and Walter Pall about hedge pruning.

 

[Hartinez]

Come on guys. Ultimately the show should wind up in Albuquerque, New Mexico. The land of enchantment/bonsai capital of the USA. Period. Point. Blank……

 

[Hartinez]

Really though. I can’t wait to get to my first National show. Pictures, no pictures. I personally don’t care. It will truly be a treat.

 

[Potawatomi13]

I was wondering about reason #5 (copyright). I see no reason why you couldn't sue someone for copyright infringement for taking a picture of your tree (as a derivative work). But that's a good way to spoil the fun.

In the world can anyone copyrite a tree? Seems a great stretch to me.

 

[Mikecheck123]

In the world can anyone copyrite a tree? Seems a great stretch to me.

You can copyright sculptures and sue people who take pictures of it, so I don't see why a tree would be any different.

 

[Potawatomi13]

You can copyright sculptures and sue people who take pictures of it, so I don't see why a tree would be any different.

A living thing constantly grows/changes. Sculpture does not. It could only be "copyrighted" as it is for moments or hours. The copyright process takes longer than it would be good for most likely.

 

[Mikecheck123]

A living thing constantly grows/changes. Sculpture does not. It could only be "copyrighted" as it is for moments or hours. The copyright process takes longer than it would be good for most likely.

You're overthinking it. A person takes a picture of your tree at a show. Their picture doesn't change.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

In the world can anyone copyrite a tree? Seems a great stretch to me.

You cannot copyright a tree, per se. And if that tree were sitting out in a public space, you would be within your rights to take photos of it.

However in a private space, the owner of that space can stipulate rules about allowing photos - if any are allowed at all. For example, the "red carpet" outside the Academy Awards is a good example of having specific areas reserved for photos outside of the venue - because photos inside of the venue are strictly controlled. In the case of the National Exhibition, if the rules against taking photos are clearly stated as a condition for entering the venue, you really don't have much to complain about, since you already accepted the conditions when you bought tickets.

You could stand out on the street in front of the exhibition hall, and hope to get a peek as the trees were being unloaded. Bring your zoom lens! Bonsai paparazzi!

Another good example is copyright as it applies to architectural works. The architect owns the building plans and controls their replication. However they do not control images of the building itself, and as long as the building can be viewed from public space, people can take photos of it all day long. In fact, you could take photos and sell them (for example as part of a book of famous buildings in a city) and there is nothing they could say about it as long as you were in public space when you took the photos. However assuming it is a private building, photos of the interior would be controlled by the owner of that space... and if the building could not be seen from public space you could control all photographic access to it (for example a shrine inside a larger building). And we're talking about imagery here - not the replication of the building itself, which remains in the control of the architect. So for example, you could not take photos from the street and use them to reverse engineer a building without running afoul of intellectual property law.

Separately... I wish photos were allowed for the non-exhibition areas. I would have loved to see what the vendor space looked like, for example.

 

[Mikecheck123]

You cannot copyright a tree, per se. And if that tree were sitting out in a public space, you would be within your rights to take photos of it.

However in a private space, the owner of that space can stipulate rules about allowing photos - if any are allowed at all. For example, the "red carpet" outside the Academy Awards is a good example of having specific areas reserved for photos outside of the venue - because photos inside of the venue are strictly controlled. In the case of the National Exhibition, if the rules against taking photos are clearly stated as a condition for entering the venue, you really don't have much to complain about, since you already accepted the conditions when you bought tickets.

You could stand out on the street in front of the exhibition hall, and hope to get a peek as the trees were being unloaded. Bring your zoom lens! Bonsai paparazzi!

Another good example is copyright as it applies to architectural works. The architect owns the building plans and controls their replication. However they do not control images of the building itself, and as long as the building can be viewed from public space, people can take photos of it all day long. In fact, you could take photos and sell them (for example as part of a book of famous buildings in a city) and there is nothing they could say about it as long as you were in public space when you took the photos. However assuming it is a private building, photos of the interior would be controlled by the owner of that space... and if the building could not be seen from public space you could control all photographic access to it (for example a shrine inside a larger building).

Separately... I wish photos were allowed for the non-exhibition areas. I would have loved to see what the vendor space looked like, for example.

Pubic/private doesn't make any difference. If I paint a picture in Central Park, do I lose my copyright unless I make everyone passing by sign a form?

The thing about buildings is only because the statute itself has a very explicit carve out for buildings in pubic places.

So unless there's a similar provision specifically for bonsai trees that I missed, they are copyrighted automatically and you can sue someone for infringement if they take a picture even without registering it with the copyright office.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Pubic/private doesn't make any difference. If I paint a picture in Central Park, do I lose my copyright unless I make everyone passing by sign a form?

No you do not. However you cannot keep people from photographing your work, or taking photos for personal use, fair use, incidental use or - specifically in this case - using the photos in a journalistic capacity as part of their reporting... for example if they were writing an article for a bonsai web site and took a photo of your bonsai.

However commercial use would be prohibited. So to go to a public bonsai exhibition and take a photo of a Walter Pall tree for your personal use would be allowed. But to take that photo and stick it on the front of a bonsai fertilizer bag would not.

That at least is my understanding of the law... but I only had a single class in intellectual property law so I am by no means an expert.

 

[Mikecheck123]

No you do not. However you cannot keep people from photographing your work, or taking photos for personal use, fair use, incidental use or - specifically in this case - using the photos in a journalistic capacity as part of their reporting... for example if they were writing an article for a bonsai web site and took a photo of your bonsai.

However commercial use would be prohibited. So to go to a public bonsai exhibition and take a photo of a Walter Pall tree for your personal use would be allowed. But to take that photo and stick it on the front of a bonsai fertilizer bag would not.

That at least is my understanding of the law... but I only had a single class in intellectual property law so I am by no means an expert.

Fair use is a defense to copyright infringement, so if you need it, it means that the trees are copyrightable.

Personal use is no defense, otherwise Napster would still be around...

 

[Adair M]

Im not arguing Joe Nogas photography skills and equipment, I am sure his gear is 10x the price of mine and better. I am not stealing money from Bill by posting a handful of photos on the local non profit club website that I volunteer to take photos for. I own and buy all of the Exhibition books and I haven't been to a single National show.

Sure I said it was lame to not have photography at the show though, but my reasons are not for profits but for education and for people like myself that couldn't make it. You have met me and should know that I am not someone that would take advantage of BIll.

While I have your attention, how many shows have you put that white pine in? How many more shows do you plan to show it in? And what changes have you made on it since the last critique of it at the last show? Its a very impressive tree but I am chomping at the bit to see more of your trees.

PS I also just read your thread about cleaning unglazed pots with your greasy nutsack and I applaud you as that technique worked wonders on some old Japanese unglazed pots I recently acquired. Where did you come up with that idea?

I have shown Mini-me at the Atlanta club show, the Knoxville club show, the Winter Silohette in Kannapolis, and now the Nationals. You happen to live in the Southeast so you have had to opportunity to see it several times. I have now shown it at the shows I usually participate in, so it will be retired from the show circuit for the next 4 or 5 years. If there’s a show on the West Coast, and there’s an easy way to take it there to display it, I might consider that… but I have no plans.

On the other hand, this was the first time I showed “The Z Tree”. It will be shown at the upcoming Atlanta show and most likely at the upcoming Winter Silohette show.

My trees are shown on a 4 or 5 year rotation. I plan several years in advance to determine which trees are getting ready for the show circuit, and prep them. The trees that just “came off” the circuit are usually cut back and repotted into slightly larger containers and allowed to regain strength and vigor. It’s kinda like an athlete prepping for the Olympics. You want to “peak” at the right time.

Since you have the Nationals book, you can see that I had different trees “on circuit” in 2016, and in 2018, and now.

I’m already working on the next batch for 2023.

Oh… Boon teaches the walnut oil technique in his Intensives.

 

[coh]

Separately... I wish photos were allowed for the non-exhibition areas. I would have loved to see what the vendor space looked like, for example.

Came across this video on youtube, most of it is devoted to the sales area. At the start they show the ribbon cutting ceremony and a quick scan of the show area. Be warned, the video is somewhat unsteady and made me feel a bit dizzy but maybe that's just me.

7th US National Bonsai Exhibition (2021)