~3 year old JBP pines

evmibo

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Hey there,

I wanted to share these pines and get any criticism and future advice.

The idea I had this spring (work was done in February) was to cut back for low back buds, repot and let growout (starting taper early). In particular I want to growout sacrifice branches, from here I figure I will let the sacrifice branches go for 5-10 years. The last picture is a good example of the bud/branch I want to growout as a vertical leader (the one I'm touching).

Finally, I'm beginning to develop a picture of what kind of tree each will be, large, shohin, etc. based on what the tree is providing.
 

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Poink88

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Nice! I like how they are coming along.

I love following "progression" from early stages, I hope you keep this thread updated. :)

(sorry I have nothing of value to help)
 

Vance Wood

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Hey there,

I wanted to share these pines and get any criticism and future advice.

The idea I had this spring (work was done in February) was to cut back for low back buds, repot and let growout (starting taper early). In particular I want to growout sacrifice branches, from here I figure I will let the sacrifice branches go for 5-10 years. The last picture is a good example of the bud/branch I want to growout as a vertical leader (the one I'm touching).

Finally, I'm beginning to develop a picture of what kind of tree each will be, large, shohin, etc. based on what the tree is providing to me.

Every body jumps on the concept of sacrifice branches but few understand the consequences. If you don't know what you are doing with them and understand the concept, all you really manage to do is create a trunk with a couple of really ugly scars that will take years to heal. Things that grow upward and stretch out the growth make for better sacrifice branching that lateral branches that grow outward. JMHO.
 

evmibo

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Every body jumps on the concept of sacrifice branches but few understand the consequences. If you don't know what you are doing with them and understand the concept, all you really manage to do is create a trunk with a couple of really ugly scars that will take years to heal. Things that grow upward and stretch out the growth make for better sacrifice branching that lateral branches that grow outward. JMHO.

Vance,

Did you see the last picture? That branch is nearly vertical (the one I'm touching) and I was planning on let it growout as a sacrifice. Are you saying I'm misinterpreting the concept of sacrifice branching?

Thanks
 

Vance Wood

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Vance,

Did you see the last picture? That branch is nearly vertical (the one I'm touching) and I was planning on let it growout as a sacrifice. Are you saying I'm misinterpreting the concept of sacrifice branching?

Thanks

I was not suggesting anything in particular, just offering a caveat warning people to understand what they are doing and not just jumping on a concept they think they know.

The branch you are holding up really does not fall into the category of a sacrifice branch, it is more of an escape branch; one that remains after a larger branch has been removed. However it could become a sacrifice branch if left to develop un-hindered for a number of years in order to fatten the branch/trunk below it.
 

evmibo

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The branch you are holding up... it could become a sacrifice branch if left to develop un-hindered for a number of years in order to fatten the branch/trunk below it.

That is what I'm going for.
 

Neli

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I was not suggesting anything in particular, just offering a caveat warning people to understand what they are doing and not just jumping on a concept they think they know.

The branch you are holding up really does not fall into the category of a sacrifice branch, it is more of an escape branch; one that remains after a larger branch has been removed. However it could become a sacrifice branch if left to develop un-hindered for a number of years in order to fatten the branch/trunk below it.
Vance what is the difference between sacrifice and escape branch...I always thought they are the same???Never new they are different.:eek:
 

Poink88

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Vance what is the difference between sacrifice and escape branch...I always thought they are the same???Never new they are different.:eek:

From my understanding...
- sacrifice branch is removed totally after its role is done.
- escape branch/trunk is allowed to grow unhindered then reduced/shortened (not totally removed) after. A subsequent growth my be allowed again to "escape" again to built taper.

Please someone correct me if I am wrong.
 

KennedyMarx

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What's your fertilizing schedule? I see some poo balls. I only know what I have read about developing pines like this and what I've read is that people fertilize the crap out of them and let that one sacrifice branch grow on the top. They seem to only keep the needles near the growing tip on the sacrifice so the bottom branches don't get shaded out. I'm sure you've already read that though.
 

evmibo

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What's your fertilizing schedule? I see some poo balls. I only know what I have read about developing pines like this and what I've read is that people fertilize the crap out of them and let that one sacrifice branch grow on the top. They seem to only keep the needles near the growing tip on the sacrifice so the bottom branches don't get shaded out. I'm sure you've already read that though.

Those are rapeseed cakes. I had never used them before so figured I try some. Besides that, I feed at least twice a week during the growth season, and up to 4 times (every other day). I've also started to use rainwater as much as the sky allows. From my understanding (and for some reason I keep thinking of a JBP that BVF has planted in his back yard) if you don't manually take away the lower needles of this sacrifice branch it can shade out the lower branches, weakening them. Furthermore, it promotes the sacrifice branch to elongate further up, which will help the branch thicken faster. The same goes for deciduous trees.

Anyways, the more I think about it I think I will just put most of these in a grow bed next spring and develop the sacrifice branches.
 
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Brian Van Fleet

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Those are rapeseed cakes. I had never used them before so figured I try some. Besides that, I feed at least twice a week during the growth season, and up to 4 times (every other day). I've also started to use rainwater as much as the sky allows. From my understanding (and for some reason I keep thinking of a JBP that BVF has planted in his back yard) if you don't manually take away the lower needles of this sacrifice branch it can shade out the lower branches, weakening them. Furthermore, it promotes the sacrifice branch to elongate further up, which will help the branch thicken faster. The same goes for deciduous trees.

Anyways, the more I think about it I think I will just put most of these in a grow bed next spring and develop the sacrifice branches.

You're off to a good start; sounds like a solid training and feeding plan.

This is probably the one you're referring to. It came from Gary Ishii as an 8-year old 1 gallon plant. Trunk was about pinky-thick, and has been in the ground for 3 years now, and is 6' tall. I'll have some decisions to make this year...shohin, or chop low and allow a new branch to become a sacrifice and get some wicked movement in the first 2" of trunk.
 

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Poink88

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1.5 years ago, I bought 3 x 1.5 foot high JBP seedlings (probably 2 years old then) at $8 each. I lost one (almost instantly...probably weak when I got it) and only have 2 now but the they are both coming along okay. Progress is slow being grown in dish pans but have to make do. I'll see if I can post some pics later. Your post (evmibo) actually inspired me this weekend to bend one straight trunk. Thanks :)
 

Bonsai Nut

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From my understanding...
- sacrifice branch is removed totally after its role is done.
- escape branch/trunk is allowed to grow unhindered then reduced/shortened (not totally removed) after. A subsequent growth my be allowed again to "escape" again to built taper.

Please someone correct me if I am wrong.

That's my understanding.

Sacrifice branches are often low - and are the types of branches you look at and say - that branch is in the wrong place to ever serve a purpose OTHER than to fatten the trunk. I can't wait to cut that thing off :)

An escape branch is a branch that is allowed to grow unhindered to get it to develop into the proper thickness for the future design of the tree. Sometimes it is after you remove a strong leader and you are left with a spindly new leader that you have to strengthen in order for it to be proper scale, but it can also be when you remove a strong branch and are left with a thin branch in the right spot - but it is too thin to work so you need to let it grow strong first to develop the proper caliper and number of terminal buds for your design.
 

jeanluc83

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Anyways, the more I think about it I think I will just put most of these in a grow bed next spring and develop the sacrifice branches.

My understanding is that you get a better ramified root system and better bark in a colander than in ground.

1.5 years ago, I bought 3 x 1.5 foot high JBP seedlings (probably 2 years old then) at $8 each. I lost one (almost instantly...probably weak when I got it) and only have 2 now but the they are both coming along okay. Progress is slow being grown in dish pans but have to make do. I'll see if I can post some pics later. Your post (evmibo) actually inspired me this weekend to bend one straight trunk. Thanks :)

I have heard that JBP can take a few years before they really start take off. Can you get away with using colanders or do they dry out too fast for you?
 

Poink88

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I have heard that JBP can take a few years before they really start take off. Can you get away with using colanders or do they dry out too fast for you?

I am not sure about drying (which is my concern) but I have a couple juniper and an ume in colanders/pond basket now that seems to be doing okay. I do plan on moving the pines in colanders next year. Thanks. :)
 

evmibo

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You're off to a good start; sounds like a solid training and feeding plan.

This is probably the one you're referring to. It came from Gary Ishii as an 8-year old 1 gallon plant. Trunk was about pinky-thick, and has been in the ground for 3 years now, and is 6' tall. I'll have some decisions to make this year...shohin, or chop low and allow a new branch to become a sacrifice and get some wicked movement in the first 2" of trunk.

Yes! That's the one. Thanks for stopping by. I figure I'll be somewhere close to there in 3-4 years. Be sure to update us when you make a decision.

...Your post (evmibo) actually inspired me this weekend to bend one straight trunk. Thanks :)

Feel free to post some pics. I don't mind.

I've heard both sides to it - wiring young (1-3 year old) jbp or cutting low for early movement. Both have a solid argument. With these I cut low. In the future, which I think requires having very young JBP - I want to crush or wire with a screen (similar to what I've seen smoke do to trident maple) and then a couple years later cut back to low (hopefully buds). That way, on paper at least, you get the best of both techniques

My understanding is that you get a better ramified root system and better bark in a colander than in ground.

I'd say yes for sure regarding the roots. I've already root pruned these twice though, and they'll have this full year to ramify roots in the colander even more. I'm sure they could be better, but basically the roots are there, they just need to thicken up after this season, and the ground is the best/fastest place for them to do so.

I'm not sure about the bark, I haven't been in the bonsai game long enough to confirm or disagree with that. I know bark takes a long time to mature. My common sense tells me that in the ground you're packing on growth faster so you're going to get bark faster. Are you talking about more delicate bark growth within a pot or colander?
 
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Adair M

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Brian: I vote for chopping lower. Otherwise, you won't get good taper between the first and second branch. That's the problem with George Muranaka's trees, he chops too high.


Chop low, let it extend again like it is now, and it will be fantastic!
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Brian: I vote for chopping lower. Otherwise, you won't get good taper between the first and second branch. That's the problem with George Muranaka's trees, he chops too high.


Chop low, let it extend again like it is now, and it will be fantastic!

Agreed on all counts. Here is an illustration of my point from post #11 and my likely course of action (as opposed to the next whorl up). I'll probably give it one more year before reducing, just to take advantage of the momentum it currently has. It's not in any danger of shedding those low branches.
 

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Poink88

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I've heard both sides to it - wiring young (1-3 year old) jbp or cutting low for early movement. Both have a solid argument. With these I cut low. In the future, which I think requires having very young JBP - I want to crush or wire with a screen (similar to what I've seen smoke do to trident maple) and then a couple years later cut back to low (hopefully buds). That way, on paper at least, you get the best of both techniques

I already cut low and have low branches but decided to bend the initial straight trunk too. It is only about 4" but it bothers me. :D I am sure it will be less noticeable once it bulk up but it look better with a slight bend now.
 
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