50+ Year Old JBP Design Ideas??

fraser67

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I bought this guy from a nursery back in March of this year. Supposedly, quite a few of these were dug up in the 60's (Simi Valley CA) to be raised and sold as landscape Black Pines. The nursery lost it's lease and the ones that remained ended up in Gardena, Ca. For the most part... they've been fairly well taken care of...
I did a pretty major prune, a little wiring and started a couple jins. I have a pretty good idea of what I want to do with this guy...and it will take a few years, I know.
Because of the existing roots and it's age, I ruled out cascade and semi (maybe wrongly) cascade.
The trunk is about 5" at the bottom.
(BTW, I have a new program that lets me do a virt...but it's storing the photos in Icloud, and I can't access them...yet)
I want to cut off the back branch and eventually doing some carving there and create some shari...The branch creates a "Y" at that point and I don't think I can do anything else with it.
You can see from the overhead photo. It also shoots out the back of the tree about 16" before any branching. Back budding doesn't look likely.
So...
First: I plan to repot early next spring. Because of it's age...should I take some extra precautions? Can I lop off the bottom 1/3 of the pot and bareroot?
Second: Is this tree too old to try an approach graft? I'd like to try 1/3 up on the left of the tree...to try and help bring the foliage in tighter. I did leave a couple branches long enough to try...but I've read they may not take given the age of the branch at that point.

I think I have a really fun project that will take years to see through.
Thanks for looking!!
Best,
Jonathan
2013-04-01 03.40.20.jpgJBP6.jpgJBP3.jpgJBP5.jpgJBP 1.jpg
 

Brian Van Fleet

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It definitely has some age, but you should be able saw off the bottom 1/3 and tease out the sides of the mass to work a coarse soil into the roots. Many suggest to bare root the front half one year, and bare root the back half in the following repotting. Do that in spring as buds are swelling.

You also have some work to do to bring the growth back to the trunk. Before considering design and wiring, priority should be given to keep it healthy, get it strong, and start getting growth close to the trunk, through approach grafting or adventitious budding through pruning.
 

fraser67

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It definitely has some age, but you should be able saw off the bottom 1/3 and tease out the sides of the mass to work a coarse soil into the roots. Many suggest to bare root the front half one year, and bare root the back half in the following repotting. Do that in spring as buds are swelling.

You also have some work to do to bring the growth back to the trunk. Before considering design and wiring, priority should be given to keep it healthy, get it strong, and start getting growth close to the trunk, through approach grafting or adventitious budding through pruning.

Thanks Brian...you were the one person I was hoping to hear from. As many have, I've found your site and advice very helpful.
Yes, health is my first concern...I will do the front half of the roots in spring. I'm very curious to see what's under there :)
I think the lower right section will respond nicely as there is a fair amount of back budding and the foliage is pretty close to the trunk already. The top left is very leggy, though it through some buds closer to the main trunk. It would be nice to get some a little further down the trunk.
So you think approach grafting will take on that old bark?
Thanks again for your time.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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So you think approach grafting will take on that old bark?

You'll have to scrape off the old bark and get down to the bottom layer in the area you plan to graft into, then cut the channel to insert the whip...go deep, the whip should be buried, with cambiums lined up, then sealed and immobilized for a year or so.

If you're in SoCal, November is probably a good month to graft.
 

bonhe

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According to Ota sensei, January is the best month for JBP grafting in Southern California. Next to it is February.
Bonhe
 

fraser67

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For anyone interested...
So I spoke with Gary At Chikugo-En Bonsai yesterday...his advice was to repot (in spring...March) and get the tree happy, healthy and vigorous. Heavy feeding through October.

Grafting on this old bark is going to be tough..."don't give it a reason to fail". Plus I shouldn't repot and graft in the same year because you don't want the graftsite to move or be disturbed.
He also agreed that it could be done in November, but that it would be better as the tree is starting to push pitch in early spring.
He also encouraged me to cut away the root that is crossing over and strangling the base. Something I wouldn't think could have been done at this point in it's age.
 

Neli

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Pines are resilient. If you just see what they do to them when repotting...Real massacre. Just give it a proper after care.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Sounds like a solid plan...please keep us posted!
 

fraser67

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Pines are resilient. If you just see what they do to them when repotting...Real massacre. Just give it a proper after care.

Just for clarification...what do you mean? Who are "they" and what "real masacre"?
 

Neli

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They are the Japanese bonsai nurseries. By massacre I mean they remove a lot of roots. Some time I have seen like 50 %
 

fraser67

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They are the Japanese bonsai nurseries. By massacre I mean they remove a lot of roots. Some time I have seen like 50 %

Thanks for clarification:). I don't know how long this guy has been in this can...it's not bulging on the outside and nothing coming out the drain holes. I know I'll cut off the bottom 1/3 then tease out the remainder. I am curious as to the amount. I also will also take out the root crossing over the trunk...who knows...it might be 50%. Yes, aftercare is important, but they have proven to be very resilient.
Thanks again...
J
 

Neli

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I personally like to be better safe than sorry. You never know how the tree will react. It will depend also on the root system you find. I have cut several times through packets with mixed results, so now I prefer to bare root and then cut any roots. There were occasions where I cut through the packet and remained with few thick roots only.
Some good info here by Harryon aftercare
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATMidsummer Pine Repotting.htm
and here
http://www.bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basics BarerootTreecare page2.html
 
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