5yr Native Tree Challenge - Dingus's rhus aromatica (Fragrant Sumac)

[LittleDingus]

This thread is to track my attempts with rhus aromatica over the next 5 years. I may end up with multiple plants but I'll track all attempts at the species under this one thread to keep the information together.

This species is native to most of Missouri including my immediate neighborhood.

USDA Plants Database

plants.usda.gov

Even though I know I've seen this species in the wild on nature walks, and I can probably find a nice specimen to dig up...especially this time of year where the bright red stands out!...I bought a nursery plant anyway. I prefer not to dig plants out of nature and my local nursery had a few left in pots. So I bought one.



This particular variety is 'Gro Low' and claims to only get 2' high but up to 8' wide. What I liked about that is some of the branches arch and angle downward naturally without trying to force them.

I was pretty certain the low trunk off to the left was attached to the upright trunk under the soil somewhere, but the root mat was too think to dig down and verify while still at the nursery. There were some clear surface roots off that branch though and from what I could feel, it felt well rooted underneath. My initial thoughts were to maybe try and split the tree there into something for a cascade and something for an upright.

The tree was purchased 9/30/2020 from a local nursery.

 

[LittleDingus]

I expect these guys to be pretty robust and we've got a whole month yet before average first frost...still have forecasted days in the 80Fs next week though the nights are starting to drop into the 40F-50Fs. So I thought I'd take a stab at separating them as I envisioned and try and open up the roots some. The surface soil looks pretty matted and the pot drains in a way that makes me think the tree is pot bound.

I didn't take a picture, but I believe the one I have is a male. On males, the catkins are generally visible over the winter and the ends of the branches on this tree appear to have them. Not an issue for me. But they are dioecious so probably I won't get fruit.

It slid out of the pot really easy and did look pot bound The advantage of nursery buying is you get all the roots with the tree. The disadvantage...well, the roots tangle really well!



After a little digging and combing, it because clear why this is the "aromatic" sumac! It has a strong aroma when worked on! Not pungent. I can't place it though. Heavy, a little spicy, distinctive...

After a lot of digging and combing, I was finally able to get down to where the two trunks met. They were definitely one tree.



I tried to be as gentle as I could with the rest of the combing and digging. It was hard to tell through the tangle how well that branch had layered itself. Being this late in fall and the tree already basically dormant, I wanted to keep as many roots as I possibly could. Our weather should be warm enough for them to heal and grow a little, but the tree has no way to get new energy now until spring.

Anyway, I was eventually able to comb out enough roots to see where to cut to keep the most roots. Once I cut there, I had two trees!



The horizontal piece I'll try some sort of cascade, windswept, all growth to the left sort of thing. These things really want to be shrubs and not trees so lateral growth shouldn't be much of an issue. I have no experience with how much they sucker or back bud to form new trunks though. They can grow quite dense so I expect to be pruning regularly.

The upright trunk I hope to just make look like a tree. There's some potential nebari there if I get lucky. The trunk is straight and narrow, but we'll see what develops...if anything.

One thing I've seen about these is that the leaves don't reduce very well. They are tri-foliat unlike many other sumac so at least I don't have the feet long palm fronds to deal with! As purchased, many of the leaves were 3"-4" across but each leaflet was more like an inch across. We'll see. The intense reds in early fall alone are good enough for me!

I was able to pot these guys pretty shallow in some 3 gallon grow bags. They'll need more root work in the future...possibly annually if I want to get them into shallow pots. Their root growth can be quite aggressive and they are often used in restoration areas or embankments to hold the soil in place.

To end this update, however, here are some pictures as currently potted.

 

[Carol 83]

we've got a whole month yet before average first frost.

We had our first frost yesterday, the rest of the week is supposed to be highs in the 70's-80 though.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I like your sumac.

The autumn colors are great. I started some from seed a few years ago, only had a couple seedlings survive, so I don't know if I will get both a male and a female. Mine are still tiny. Less than pencil thick seedlings, so they are not much to look at.

 

[LittleDingus]

We had our first frost yesterday, the rest of the week is supposed to be highs in the 70's-80 though.

We dipped into the low 40Fs for a few nights over the weekend. Supposed to be a week of low 80Fs during the day with night temps no lower than 58F for the next 7 days...we'll see. I think I'm on the warmer end of route 70 than you are!

 

[LittleDingus]

I like your sumac.

The autumn colors are great. I started some from seed a few years ago, only had a couple seedlings survive, so I don't know if I will get both a male and a female. Mine are still tiny. Less than pencil thick seedlings, so they are not much to look at.

Mine looks to be a male.



I didn't realize you could tell in the fall but apparently the males put their catkins out in the fall while the females don't put buds out. The nursery doesn't label them any different like the do hollies. But knowing that now, I might see if I can find a female for cheap. I don't care about the fruits other than general curiosity.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Interesting. I wonder if Rhus typhina does that too.

I want a fruiting female Rhus typhina. So far both I have collected seem to be male.

 

[HorseloverFat]

You should plant it in the ground, thicken it up!

ABSOLUTELY kidding!

All “hubbub” aside, I like Rhus... i have one... a stag, though.. and I have one or two others I have run across that I REALLY enjoy...

Can’t wait to see what happens with THIS one.

 

[LittleDingus]

You should plant it in the ground, thicken it up!

ABSOLUTELY kidding!

All “hubbub” aside, I like Rhus... i have one... a stag, though.. and I have one or two others I have run across that I REALLY enjoy...

Can’t wait to see what happens with THIS one.

lol...this is one species that's often bigger/better as a nursery plant than specimen found in nature!

I went for a walk this morning along a wooded path around a man made lake that's only a few miles from my house. There is a lot of aromatic sumac around that lake. Here is what it most typically looks like around here:



It typically grows as an under story tree here...scratch that...it most typically grows as ground cover here! In the spring/summer, you never notice it...but it's everywhere! In the fall, it's easy to see because of the reds. I walked probably 2 miles of wooded trail with sumac all around me and none of it higher than my knee! The trunks are all thinner than a pencil. They look more like dried straw stalks than tree trunks.

There are a few spots along the access roads where there is a patch of sumac along the forest edge. Those do get much bigger:



Those are all sumac branches. Biggest are just over an inch thick. Most crawl along the ground rather than stand upright. The clump is about 8' high in the middle and about 20' wide.

There's another trail I walk that has a grove of staghorn sumac. I love the way they form colonies! I'd be curious to see yours...there aren't many examples of sumac in pots! I know there are reasons for that...especially for the larger leafed varieties. I'm taking inspiration for the rooted branch half of my purchase from the "stinkbush" pictured here:

Rhus trilobata ‘Autumn Amber’ Three Leaf Sumac

Rhus trilobata‘Autumn Amber’ Three Leaf Sumac Common Names: Stinkbush, Skumbush, polecat bush, stinking sumac, ill-scented sumac, quailbush, squawbush, squawberry, basketbush, lemonade sumac, three…

rockymtnbonsai.com

Not sure at all yet where to go with the upright half. Need to take a few more walks for inspiration

 

[HorseloverFat]

Hehe! They completely “take over”.. that’s why I was joking about the ground planting.. they are actually quite a problem around here..

I have 1 smaller one collected in spring.. i have 2 larger, more “hard-life”-looking specimens “staked out” for late winter, and will start a thread for all my Sumac “work”.

Here’s my little guy.. the wire “slipped”, but it’s holding..

Found ‘mongst a lot of garbage in one of my other threads.

HorseloverFat’s 2020-2120 NON-ideal NONtest entries.

Look for Service Berry, or Saskatoons, genus Amelanchier. Quick inquiry. I have been more actively seeking the Saskatoons out now (as well as utilizing the search feature more often ;) ) thank you for this. My question regarding the Amanchalier is: When I was observing one such specimen...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[Lost2301]

lol...this is one species that's often bigger/better as a nursery plant than specimen found in nature!

I went for a walk this morning along a wooded path around a man made lake that's only a few miles from my house. There is a lot of aromatic sumac around that lake. Here is what it most typically looks like around here:

View attachment 335160View attachment 335161

It typically grows as an under story tree here...scratch that...it most typically grows as ground cover here! In the spring/summer, you never notice it...but it's everywhere! In the fall, it's easy to see because of the reds. I walked probably 2 miles of wooded trail with sumac all around me and none of it higher than my knee! The trunks are all thinner than a pencil. They look more like dried straw stalks than tree trunks.

There are a few spots along the access roads where there is a patch of sumac along the forest edge. Those do get much bigger:

View attachment 335162View attachment 335158View attachment 335159

Those are all sumac branches. Biggest are just over an inch thick. Most crawl along the ground rather than stand upright. The clump is about 8' high in the middle and about 20' wide.

There's another trail I walk that has a grove of staghorn sumac. I love the way they form colonies! I'd be curious to see yours...there aren't many examples of sumac in pots! I know there are reasons for that...especially for the larger leafed varieties. I'm taking inspiration for the rooted branch half of my purchase from the "stinkbush" pictured here:

Rhus trilobata ‘Autumn Amber’ Three Leaf Sumac

Rhus trilobata‘Autumn Amber’ Three Leaf Sumac Common Names: Stinkbush, Skumbush, polecat bush, stinking sumac, ill-scented sumac, quailbush, squawbush, squawberry, basketbush, lemonade sumac, three…

rockymtnbonsai.com

Not sure at all yet where to go with the upright half. Need to take a few more walks for inspiration

I see you found my sumac on my website and it inspires you. I think if I were you I would feed it a lot of plant tone right in its nursery pot and let it grow any where it wants for several years to thicken up the trunk and branches. They grow pretty fast in nursery pots by the way. I would look in the spring in nurseries for one with a better trunk, much better trunk then this. Spring is absolutely best to find them when they have no leaves on them. You can just stand there and eye ball of them looking at nothing but the trunks. All that foliage does not get in the way. The tree you like is now dead. I loaned it out to the Gardens in spring when it was flowering and when I got it back it was half dead. It was completely dead in July. Its really hard to kill these trees only lack of water in my opinion will kill the. I just finished styling two more of these in the last couple of weeks in the house. I found them in nursery in the spring. I might post them latter if I can take some photos of them.

 

[LittleDingus]

I see you found my sumac on my website and it inspires you. I think if I were you I would feed it a lot of plant tone right in its nursery pot and let it grow any where it wants for several years to thicken up the trunk and branches. They grow pretty fast in nursery pots by the way. I would look in the spring in nurseries for one with a better trunk, much better trunk then this. Spring is absolutely best to find them when they have no leaves on them. You can just stand there and eye ball of them looking at nothing but the trunks. All that foliage does not get in the way. The tree you like is now dead. I loaned it out to the Gardens in spring when it was flowering and when I got it back it was half dead. It was completely dead in July. Its really hard to kill these trees only lack of water in my opinion will kill the. I just finished styling two more of these in the last couple of weeks in the house. I found them in nursery in the spring. I might post them latter if I can take some photos of them.

Aw man! Sorry that one died

Aside from the crappy trunks on mine Any hints on ramification and/or leaf reduction? I'm not so worried on cultivation...they're a weed here. Give them water...they will grow...and grow....and grow...They are literally everywhere as an understory ground cover. At the edges of clearings, they burst into these large shrubs that are magnificent in late summer/early fall. But I've never tried to intentionally grow one

I would be interested in your new ones if you get time to take some pictures. Are you trying to recreate the one that died? Going a different route entirely? How large of a bonsai do you aim for with these and their large compound leaves. I think there are a few other aromatic sumac entrants in this challenge that would be interested in your experience as well

I'm not unhappy with the trunks on mine. They were a late season purchase and I got a 2-fer out of the deal. I don't care about show quality for this challenge...I'm just looking to have some fun. It's more about the journey than the destination for me anyway That I spent most of my youth either wandering the local creek or itching my skin completely off from the poison ivy I get into at the local creek adds a bit of flavor to this species for me...learn to tell the difference!!!

Poison Ivy…or not?

Every blog, website, magazine, and guidebook dealing with the outdoors has a section warning you of the terrible toxic weeds poison ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac. There are always pictures. And…

www.ozarkswalkabout.com

This one I'll keep upright.



I may even style it as a typical landscape maple These are the "gro-lo" variety. They are supposed to only get about 2' tall so I'm not sure how much trunk girth they will ever get. And this guy is maybe getting towards max height. I'm sure they can be trained taller given how wide they can grow...but I do wonder about trunk size being limited.

This one I'm thinking a waterfall of red in the fall.



I don't know that I have a place to grow it that way. I don't have grow benches at this house...everything is on the ground. But I'll figure something out

I'm debating trimming the flowers off soon or maybe just letting them flower once because it interests me. I know they're nothing showy...but neither are redwood flowers and I was very excited that one of my redwood flowered this winter!

 

[Lost2301]

Aw man! Sorry that one died

Aside from the crappy trunks on mine Any hints on ramification and/or leaf reduction? I'm not so worried on cultivation...they're a weed here. Give them water...they will grow...and grow....and grow...They are literally everywhere as an understory ground cover. At the edges of clearings, they burst into these large shrubs that are magnificent in late summer/early fall. But I've never tried to intentionally grow one

I would be interested in your new ones if you get time to take some pictures. Are you trying to recreate the one that died? Going a different route entirely? How large of a bonsai do you aim for with these and their large compound leaves. I think there are a few other aromatic sumac entrants in this challenge that would be interested in your experience as well

I'm not unhappy with the trunks on mine. They were a late season purchase and I got a 2-fer out of the deal. I don't care about show quality for this challenge...I'm just looking to have some fun. It's more about the journey than the destination for me anyway That I spent most of my youth either wandering the local creek or itching my skin completely off from the poison ivy I get into at the local creek adds a bit of flavor to this species for me...learn to tell the difference!!!

Poison Ivy…or not?

Every blog, website, magazine, and guidebook dealing with the outdoors has a section warning you of the terrible toxic weeds poison ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac. There are always pictures. And…

www.ozarkswalkabout.com

This one I'll keep upright.

View attachment 357413

I may even style it as a typical landscape maple These are the "gro-lo" variety. They are supposed to only get about 2' tall so I'm not sure how much trunk girth they will ever get. And this guy is maybe getting towards max height. I'm sure they can be trained taller given how wide they can grow...but I do wonder about trunk size being limited.

This one I'm thinking a waterfall of red in the fall.

View attachment 357414 View attachment 357415

I don't know that I have a place to grow it that way. I don't have grow benches at this house...everything is on the ground. But I'll figure something out

I'm debating trimming the flowers off soon or maybe just letting them flower once because it interests me. I know they're nothing showy...but neither are redwood flowers and I was very excited that one of my redwood flowered this winter!

In my opinion there is no need for leaf reduction on your "grow low" they are already small, or should be. My trees are Rhus trilobata‘Autumn Amber’ Three Leaf Sumac which is very similar to yours. My second tree was an attempt to recreate my first tree which died. It is much a better tree then my first tree. See photo, I donated it to the Gardens. My third and fourth trees are not in a cascade style. One is a clump/twin trunk style and the other doesn't really have a style? Style wise I think you have to go with what the tree is giving you. Which is why I suggested to go look for a nursery tree if you can afford one. Spring is best and look at the trunks and nebari until you find a good one. Flower buds form in late summer and are those bud looking things in some of your photos. The flowers are great by the way and they smell good despite the tree being called a "stinkbush". If you want flowers next spring then you have to be careful when cutting them back, cut to late in the season no flowers next year. Bugs generally don't like them, however all of my trees were bleeding sap on the trunks when I got them. Treated them with Bayer Advanced and the bleeding stopped. The two trees I bought last spring flowered and had seed pods on them at the end of the year, not a lot but a few. They are easy to wire and generally hold the branch in place after a few years. Wire marks generally heal really well to. So here some photos. 1st photo belongs to the DBG now. 2nd and 3rd photos show their first styling will be tuned up in the spring as they leaf out. These make great trees to learn Bonsai on by the way. Two more months I will be out looking for a couple more!

 

[LittleDingus]

In my opinion there is no need for leaf reduction on your "grow low" they are already small, or should be. My trees are Rhus trilobata‘Autumn Amber’ Three Leaf Sumac which is very similar to yours. My second tree was an attempt to recreate my first tree which died. It is much a better tree then my first tree. See photo, I donated it to the Gardens. My third and fourth trees are not in a cascade style.

Oh wow! The page has been updated since the last time I was there

Tree #2 is awesome! I love the way the foliage makes a shimmering red forcefield around that cool trunk! Yeah, I'm a sci-fi geek sometimes

I'm not keen on that pot though Seeing as you donated the tree, I can see why it's not an a fancier pot

We'll see how mine bud out, but I didn't think the leaves were much smaller being "gro-lo" vs typical for the species. They are everywhere where I walk through the woods here.

 

[Lost2301]

In my opinion there is no need for leaf reduction on your "grow low" they are already small, or should be. My trees are Rhus trilobata‘Autumn Amber’ Three Leaf Sumac which is very similar to yours. My second tree was an attempt to recreate my first tree which died. It is much a better tree then my first tree. See photo, I donated it to the Gardens. My third and fourth trees are not in a cascade style. One is a clump/twin trunk style and the other doesn't really have a style? Style wise I think you have to go with what the tree is giving you. Which is why I suggested to go look for a nursery tree if you can afford one. Spring is best and look at the trunks and nebari until you find a good one. Flower buds form in late summer and are those bud looking things in some of your photos. The flowers are great by the way and they smell good despite the tree being called a "stinkbush". If you want flowers next spring then you have to be careful when cutting them back, cut to late in the season no flowers next year. Bugs generally don't like them, however all of my trees were bleeding sap on the trunks when I got them. Treated them with Bayer Advanced and the bleeding stopped. The two trees I bought last spring flowered and had seed pods on them at the end of the year, not a lot but a few. They are easy to wire and generally hold the branch in place after a few years. Wire marks generally heal really well to. So here some photos. 1st photo belongs to the DBG now. 2nd and 3rd photos show their first styling will be tuned up in the spring as they leaf out. These make great trees to learn Bonsai on by the way. Two more months I will be out looking for a couple more!

I posted the wrong photo on tree #4, here is the front of tree.

 

[Lost2301]

Oh wow! The page has been updated since the last time I was there

Tree #2 is awesome! I love the way the foliage makes a shimmering red forcefield around that cool trunk! Yeah, I'm a sci-fi geek sometimes

I'm not keen on that pot though Seeing as you donated the tree, I can see why it's not an a fancier pot

We'll see how mine bud out, but I didn't think the leaves were much smaller being "gro-lo" vs typical for the species. They are everywhere where I walk through the woods here.

That pot is really a high quality pots with multiple discrete color changes in it. Your opinion on the pot is really what Bonsai is all about, some like a tree/pot the way it is and others not so much. I suspect you would change your mind if you saw the tree/person in person. Good luck!

 

[LittleDingus]

That pot is really a high quality pots with multiple discrete color changes in it. Your opinion on the pot is really what Bonsai is all about, some like a tree/pot the way it is and others not so much. I suspect you would change your mind if you saw the tree/person in person. Good luck!

I meant no offense.

My taste in pots is not very conventional...at least from a formal bonsai perspective.

 

[Lost2301]

I meant no offense.

My taste in pots is not very conventional...at least from a formal bonsai perspective.

I know you did not mean any disrespect. How do you keep the creatures off you trees in Kansas City? My mother lived in St. Joe and she had nightly visitors all the time. She had a possum living on the side of her house and eating the dogs food. Smart possum and those two dogs did not even know it was there! The possums were using the storm water sewers to get around to, saw one climb out of the one her corner. Rabbits and squirrels are real bad there to. Raccoons keeping climbing over and knocking trees off the benches to. Cute aren't they?

 

[LittleDingus]

I know you did not mean any disrespect. How do you keep the creatures off you trees in Kansas City? My mother lived in St. Joe and she had nightly visitors all the time. She had a possum living on the side of her house and eating the dogs food. Smart possum and those two dogs did not even know it was there! The possums were using the storm water sewers to get around to, saw one climb out of the one her corner. Rabbits and squirrels are real bad there to. Raccoons keeping climbing over and knocking trees off the benches to. Cute aren't they?

I've yet to see any possum in Kansas City. We used to get them in the garage in Illinois all the time in the fall. If we didn't close the door soon enough...they'd wander in for the warmth. Heck, we had one nest in the garage once even though we did close the door all the time! It chewed in through the wall!

I do see rabbits everywhere...but there are none in my neighborhood.

Squirrels are the big problem. And deer. The squirrels dug up most of my acorns I had planted in the fall. Luckily the chinquapin that I really wanted were high up on a deck and hadn't been found yet when I noticed the others had been dug up. Mostly I've just gotten lucky and they've not done any serious damage though.

 

[Carol 83]

I know you did not mean any disrespect. How do you keep the creatures off you trees in Kansas City? My mother lived in St. Joe and she had nightly visitors all the time. She had a possum living on the side of her house and eating the dogs food. Smart possum and those two dogs did not even know it was there! The possums were using the storm water sewers to get around to, saw one climb out of the one her corner. Rabbits and squirrels are real bad there to. Raccoons keeping climbing over and knocking trees off the benches to. Cute aren't they?

We had an opossum that would get into the dog food in our garage, scared the crap out of me. We also had a raccoon get into our attic via an unused chimney, that was fun... But only the squirrels bother my trees, and usually only in the fall. I have had alot of oak seedlings pop up in my pots this winter.