A day to remember...

[greerhw]

I think the tragedy of 9/11 was not so much the lives lost (3-5 thousand is terrible, but a drop in the bucket compared to some disasters in other countries) but more in the rampant paranoia, extremism, and nationalism (yes, nationalism, you know, the nasty word that "patriotism" is a euphemism for) and xenophobia that it has sparked in this country.

Warrantless wiretapping, torture, incarceration without charges nor trial, using coercion to force other nations to bend to us ("you're either with us or you're with the terrorists" am i right?)

Land of the Free indeed...

Whoa dude, back the truck up, If we're so bad in America, why does every country in the world have citizens migrating here. I believe in Capital Punishment and what ever it takes to save American lives, but we stop short of hacking someones head off with a sword, we are dealing with people with no regard for human life and you're complaing about a little water boarding. If I were in charge and I could save one American life, you have no idea what I would be capable of, you wouldn't be able to sleep tonight.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Wall]

Whoa dude, back the truck up, If we're so bad in America, why does every country in the world have citizens migrating here.

Better economic conditions. And frankly, more freedoms than some (read: SOME) other countries. But why stop at being slightly freer than China when we could stick to our so-called principles?

I believe in Capital Punishment and what ever it takes to save American lives

This doesn't really pertain to what I'm talking about. I'm somewhat neutral on the subject of Capital punishment. In extreme cases I think the Death Penalty is permissible, but only in the most extreme and rare of circumstances. But again, this doesn't really have much to do with what I am talking about

we are dealing with people with no regard for human life and you're complaing about a little water boarding

I hear that phrase thrown around quite a bit; that they "have no regard for human life" Do you really buy that garbage Fox (or rather, Faux) News feeds us? In any case, yes, I am against the use of water-boarding or sleep deprivation or any of the other innumerable horrors U.S. soldiers and other officials have inflicted on suspected terrorists, both innocent and guilty.

You'll find that the Constitution agrees with me; in the Eighth Amendment
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

It's the duty of any nation claiming to be free and just that they follow their most sacrosanct principles. Freedom and liberty has a cost, and that cost is to the free.

If I were in charge and I could save one American life, you have no idea what I would be capable of, you wouldn't be able to sleep tonight.

I already have trouble sleeping at night seeing what this nation has become in response to a tragic event. If Al-Qaeda's (I'm using the specific organization's name because the word "terrorists" is such a nebulous, ill-defined and 'cowboys versus indians' kind of term) aim was to destroy America, then I believe they have done so. Not by crushing flesh, steel and concrete, but by making us crush the very principles and liberties in which we used to take pride and anchor ourselves in

 

[greerhw]

I hear that phrase thrown around quite a bit; that they "have no regard for human life" Do you really buy that garbage Fox (or rather, Faux) News feeds us? In any case, yes, I am against the use of water-boarding or sleep deprivation or any of the other innumerable horrors U.S. soldiers and other officials have inflicted on suspected terrorists, both innocent and guilty.

I not sure what you consider human life, but having the choice to whack your daughters head off because she talked to some infidel, or shoot your wife because she disagreed with you "regard for human life" regardless of where you heard it on Fox news or not, you are out of touch with reality. I would drill holes in their teeth with a Sears drill and a dull bit if it saved a life. So sleep well tonight because some of the horrors we may or may not have inflicted on terrorists that you so vehemently opposed have given you and your family the piece of mind to do so.

keep it green,
Harry

PS:
If you feel that there are other countries that offer more freedoms that we do, I'm sure they would welcome you with open arms.

 

[Wall]

I not sure what you consider human life, but having the choice to whack your daughters head off because she talked to some infidel, or shoot your wife because she disagreed with you

Uh, what? You say that like every Muslim in the middle east is some whacko extremist. Those kinds of actions are the ones taken by the kind of opponent we are already combating, namely Al-Qaeda and its allies. How can we claim to be better than a homocidal religious fanatic stoning his daughter to death when we partake in tortures far more humiliating to human dignity? You can claim neither to be a person of better morals or principles than a "crazy terrorist with 'no regard for human life'" when you engage in torture or other war crimes.

I would drill holes in their teeth with a Sears drill and a dull bit if it saved a life.

Except, the chances are that you're not saving a life, and all you're doing is committing a war crime and making yourself no better than your image of your enemy.

the horrors we may or may not have inflicted on terrorists

Implying that we may NOT have 'simulated drowning' put human beings on leashes and walked them around naked and other unspeakables? I'm sorry, but given the photos, videos, and testimonial, I'm afraid YOU are out of touch with reality. Furthermore, many of these men were later released after no compelling evidence was found that they were guilty of ANYTHING. That is to say, we put men who were not charged or convicted of anything through cruel and unusual punishment without trial. Blatantly unconstitutional to say nothing immorality of it.

If you feel that there are other countries that have more freedoms that we do, I'm sure they would welcome you with open arms.

To be blunt, that was a very typical redneck "THEY TOOK OUR JERBS GET THE HULL OUT OF UMMERICA" jab. Frankly, the most "unpatriotic" thing an American can do is stay quiet while injustice rules and pretend everything is A-OK and we're still spotless and free of sin. I'm not saying the U.S. is hopeless, but if everyone who thought America wasn't a perfect nation and had (big) problems to fix "got the hell out" We'd be stuck with a very third-world nation indeed.

I think I'm done here. Go ahead and make your rebuttal, I won't respond. I came here to discuss bonsai, not politics, but I managed to get myself sucked in.

 

[Vance Wood]

Didn't even care to read the slime from the fascists.

I repeat: this is an insult to the victims, their families and their friends.

The way some people are toying with the suffering of people is disgusting. Not only is this base, but those people are referring to the message of Jesus christ, that makes me feel like puking.

And I repeat; some of my friends might have been there, whether they were undocumented workers or traders.

I am sincere and true, and some have a name in this forum that sounds like the sound of vomit.

I have a profound respect for people who stood up against slavery like the quakers at the time of the underground railroad

I deeply respect politicians like Jimmy Carter who got involved in charity after his office: what will the son of G. Bush do after avoiding the draft, getting fat on his daddy's relations, apart from ruining the companies he was the head of before being the president of a majority of cretins?...

All right, i've understood that the christian right is getting a voice here (ohmy god, how it hurts to see how wicked hateful people are taking any opportunity, even a in bonsai forum, to try to push their narrow-minded ideas)

When I read ridiculous posts about the "Nazis" trying to infringe the right of the people to waste water in a time of global warming, it really makes me sick. Yes, ignorants, double ignorants.

This is one contradiction, I won't waste time to list more.

Why do you Americans hate us?...

(Yeah, if you don't understand what that means, if you have no sense of humour, no cultural references but the mighty dollar, no sense of history, you may wonder : don't worry, we never turn a stranger here, we're a secular republic, and we are the sum of what each one brought and hoped for. Well, when I read some of the post in this american forum, I feel Europe is the new world. Bang, you're dead, to quote Al-Qaeda (but that's just a joke, to upset the fascists like greeewhbuuk or sthg and a few others, anyway they didn't ever fight for a cause - for money, maybe, but certainly not for a cause but their belly-button<LOL> ( )

You make a couple of points. You ask why do Americans hate "us" which, I assume means you as well" then who are you and why do you think we Americans hate you? Maybe I missed something in this post but I don't know you and you do not identify yourself very well. You also leave me with the feeling that you are pro Al-Qaeda. If that is the case I can tell you why Americans hate you.

 

[Vance Wood]

Seriously....what the F**k is wrong with some of you people?????

Harry asks for a moment of rememberance on a forum based in the US for several thousand innocent people slaughtered in cold blood by religious fanatics and some of you twist that into a bunch of right wing Christian fascists pushing American imperialism????

Wow...maybe there really isn't much hope left for this world.

Bonsai could be a bridge to bringing some peace to this sick world(people like the WBFF are giving it a shot)...but maybe they are wasting their time.

American Imperialism? There is that pejorative again. You either don't know what imperialism is or you don't understand American history and world involvement. If we were imperialist we would own France, Germany and Japan, but we have spent countless American dollars and countless American lives to garner the freedom of France, Germany and Japan from the oppression of dictators and tyrants and gave their countries back to their people. We did not do it alone to be sure but we carried a major portion of the cost and effort that without us would have failed.

 

[pauldogx]

American Imperialism? There is that pejorative again. You either don't know what imperialism is or you don't understand American history and world involvement. If we were imperialist we would own France, Germany and Japan, but we have spent countless American dollars and countless American lives to garner the freedom of France, Germany and Japan from the oppression of dictators and tyrants and gave their countries back to their people. We did not do it alone to be sure but we carried a major portion of the cost and effort that without us would have failed.

Ummm---Vance--you may want to reread my post again. I was not using it as a perjorative but trying to refute some of the claims of some of the malletheads responding on this thread that were accusing us of imperialism. I'm quite sure I was one of the ones that was being painted as a fascist!!

 

[meushi]

You make a couple of points. You ask why do Americans hate "us" which, I assume means you as well" then who are you and why do you think we Americans hate you? Maybe I missed something in this post but I don't know you and you do not identify yourself very well. You also leave me with the feeling that you are pro Al-Qaeda. If that is the case I can tell you why Americans hate you.

Alain happens to be French...

 

[greerhw]

Uh, what? You say that like every Muslim in the middle east is some whacko extremist. Those kinds of actions are the ones taken by the kind of opponent we are already combating, namely Al-Qaeda and its allies. How can we claim to be better than a homocidal religious fanatic stoning his daughter to death when we partake in tortures far more humiliating to human dignity? You can claim neither to be a person of better morals or principles than a "crazy terrorist with 'no regard for human life'" when you engage in torture or other war crimes.

Too bad you're gone, the two cases I mentioned above happened in the US, A Muslim father killed both his daughters and the other killed his wife according to Sharia Law.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=favzluXtznM

http://blog.taragana.com/n/muslim-tv-channel-founder-charged-with-decapitating-wife-11226/



Except, the chances are that you're not saving a life, and all you're doing is committing a war crime and making yourself no better than your image of your enemy.

I guess we need to sit down at the table with these guys and work out our differences.



Implying that we may NOT have 'simulated drowning' put human beings on leashes and walked them around naked and other unspeakables? I'm sorry, but given the photos, videos, and testimonial, I'm afraid YOU are out of touch with reality. Furthermore, many of these men were later released after no compelling evidence was found that they were guilty of ANYTHING. That is to say, we put men who were not charged or convicted of anything through cruel and unusual punishment without trial. Blatantly unconstitutional to say nothing immorality of it.

Walked around on leashes unusual punishhment, I see guys on "the Bunny Ranch" pay a lot of money for that.



To be blunt, that was a very typical redneck "THEY TOOK OUR JERBS GET THE HULL OUT OF UMMERICA" jab. Frankly, the most "unpatriotic" thing an American can do is stay quiet while injustice rules and pretend everything is A-OK and we're still spotless and free of sin. I'm not saying the U.S. is hopeless, but if everyone who thought America wasn't a perfect nation and had (big) problems to fix "got the hell out" We'd be stuck with a very third-world nation indeed.

Yeah, rednecks are rude, crude and socially unacceptable, can't tell you how many times that's been thrown in my face, I wear it as a badge of honor. Why do you think I go in the bar and raise concerns, I'm every bit a Flag waiving American as you or anybody else is, maybe more than some. You'll be back, you can't stand the fact that someone doesn't agree with your liberal views.

see ya soon,
Harry,or you can call me Bubba or Skeeter

 

[Redwood Ryan]

I really am re-thinking about my decision to join this site. Just a bunch of Anti-American jerks. Calm down and get some respect people.

 

[Vance Wood]

Ummm---Vance--you may want to reread my post again. I was not using it as a perjorative but trying to refute some of the claims of some of the malletheads responding on this thread that were accusing us of imperialism. I'm quite sure I was one of the ones that was being painted as a fascist!!

Sorry if I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

 

[greerhw]

I really am re-thinking about my decision to join this site. Just a bunch of Anti-American jerks. Calm down and get some respect people.

Normally you wouldn't see these types of post here, they would be in the Karaoke Bar and you would have to go there on your own, but on this particular day, I wanted to express my sorrow for the victims and their familys, so I posted it in the General Forum. I should have given it some thought that there would be people that didn't feel as strongly as I do about 9/11, plus I have to deal with the memory of the Murrah bombing in Oklahoma City, since I live here and was two blocks away when it happened. So don't give up on us just yet, you should not see anything but bonsai posts unless you choose to.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[pauldogx]

No problem Vance!!!

 

[Vance Wood]

I really am re-thinking about my decision to join this site. Just a bunch of Anti-American jerks. Calm down and get some respect people.

I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who said: All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. Keeping that in mind I hope you stick around. Not everyone here is anti American. Sometimes the patriots are not quite so vocal----they're too busy doing what they do which makes America work. It's only when pissed off that they bring out the guns and stand in the way of tyrany and tyrants.

 

[Attila Soos]

I really am re-thinking about my decision to join this site. Just a bunch of Anti-American jerks. Calm down and get some respect people.

The typical "american" is an imaginary person, it doesn't exist. It is a strawman.

Americans are individuals with an infinite array of (often conflicting) ideas and beliefs. Strictly speaking, one cannot be an anti-American, because he cannot be against an infinite number of ideas held by hundreds of millions of different people of different background and origin. All these people together form what is today "American".

However, the Constitution is probably the closest thing that we can call a group of prevailing ideals that most Americans believe in. So, if someone reads the American Constitution, and is against it, then (and only then) he can still call himself an anti-American.

 

[greerhw]

The typical "american" is an imaginary person, it doesn't exist. It is a strawman.

Americans are individuals with an infinite array of (often conflicting) ideas and beliefs. Strictly speaking, one cannot be an anti-American, because he cannot be against an infinite number of ideas held by hundreds of millions of different people of different background and origin. All these people together form what is today "American".

However, the Constitution is probably the closest thing that we can call a group of prevailing ideas that most Americans believe in. So, if someone reads the American Constitution, and is against it, then he can still call himself an anti-American.

When a catastrophic tragedy like 9/11 happens, we put our differences away and became one hand on one heart, I want that to be remembered while I'm here. The generation today pays little attention to what happened at Pearl Harbor 70 years ago and that is a shame. It was the most significant American event of the 20th century. Okay, I will get down from my soapbox and get on with bonsai, since that is why people came here.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Attila Soos]

When a catastrophic tragedy like 9/11 happens, we put our differences away and became one hand on one heart, I want that to be remembered while I'm here. The generation today pays little attention to what happened at Pearl Harbor 70 years ago and that is a shame. It was the most significant American event of the 20th century. Okay, I will get down from my soapbox and get on with bonsai, since that is why people came here.

keep it green,
Harry

I whole heartedly agree, Harry. After the event, the Nation came together as never before. We should always remember that.

 

[Rick Moquin]

As this thread has strayed off course, may I suggest out of respect with the intent, to let it RIP as well.

Have you hugged one of your trees today?

 

[Treebeard]

There's no easy way to say this without it sounding like an admonition, which it isn't.

Many different countries lost citizens in the attacks. We should be thinking of all of them, wherever we are from.

Chris.

 

[Klytus]

Several years ago a bunch of us were coeced into travelling to dingy London with a resting actor buddy,this was to see Steven Berkoff and his Masterclass of Shakespears Evil Villains.

I don't remember a great deal of his enterpretations but i do remember his admonishing the audience for falling asleep...