october
Masterpiece
Such great progress in such a short time. Also, very good documentation of everything.
Rob
Rob
A few pine seeds, 6 years later.
- Thread starter Eric Schrader
- Start date
cmeg1
Imperial Masterpiece
Looks great.Just curious,how many of these JBP do you have to play with around this age?Keep up the good work! And thanks for the thread.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Just seeing this thread for the first time, very nice work. Thanks for taking the time to document along the way and then post it all here.
Chris
Chris
Eric Schrader
Chumono
I have about 25 of them. I started about 110 but by the time you get to potting them into pond baskets you're talking about a lot of bonsai soil. Then when they go into the larger baskets, which are the equivalent of about 7 gallons, you're talking about even more. I had to pare it down for that reason and for space purposes as well. Of the 25 only about 10 are nearing refinement stage, these are the ones that will be shohin. For the larger trees it will be another few years before the trunks are large enough to remove the sacrifice branches.
Eric Schrader
Chumono
An exposed root pine in the fourth growing season (I love exposed root BTW.):
Same tree, opposite side two years later:
Same tree another two years later (now) sorry about the bad focus:
The roots and trunk sections are larger but this tree is not ready for serious styling. Also, for some reason I'm not getting good budding on this one. Just hoping that I don't have to regrow the entire tree from the top bud above the roots. There is reverse taper right where it is touching the side of the basket. Above that are two branches that I could cut back to, but both are now somewhat leggy. For now this tree will just sit on the bench waiting for the trunk to get bigger.
Eric Schrader
Chumono
Informal upright - this one had the roots buried so I had to remove some of the soil so they'll start to form bark. This will be one of the larger trees and likely ends up at 16-20" finished height so the trunk will have to fatten for at least 4-5 more years before the lead is removed.
The lower branches on this tree are well-developed at this point so I did some thinning and cutback. The largest of them on the right coming almost from the back might end up being removed but I haven't decided yet. I did more soil removal and found the surface to be full of large roots. Because I didn't remove the smaller pond basket this one seems to need to be repotted this winter, even after scraping away the top of the soil I'm still not getting good water penetration in the center.
before:
The tree with large sacrifice branch is about 5' tall but the top 3 1/2' will be removed once the trunk thickens further:
closeup of the trunk section that will remain in the final design, a cloth covering the two sacrifice branches:
A view from the left side shows how both sacrifice branches are angled back and the future top is coming forward again. This prevents some of the shading problem that the sacrifice would cause and also allows for the large cuts to be on the back of the finished tree:
view from the back shows some of the clogged mass of roots in the basket, I can't decide whether having this many roots is a good thing or bad:
Eric Schrader
Chumono
Repotting
I've been doing some repotting of some of my pines in baskets and those of a friend who is following the same process. Thought you all might be interested to see a couple photos of what the roots look like after a few years.
First, the side of a rootball pulled from a pond basket after 3 years in the container in San Francisco (so cool summers, but good water and good fertilization):
The same rootball bottom. This tree is being transferred to a larger basket and the circling roots that are on the bottom are to be removed. Overall there is good root density throughout the container, it was Boon's mix for soil, medium size. The image of the side is a bit deceiving because there appear to be few roots, but when we raked the side below a layer of soil particles was an even crop of root tips:
One of my 9YO pines coming out of a double basket after 4 growing seasons in the larger basket. I do not recommend the double container technique to anyone and I'm only repotting this one because the large basket broke. The soil inside the smaller basket is overly dense with roots and the root density in the larger basket is better. The container has a ton of micorrhiza. In the end I have to cut off all the roots outside the smaller basket and then a mat of roots along the inner sides and bottom. The roots growing through the smaller basket in a few places are woody which makes removing the basket difficult.
By comparison this is the rootball of an older pine, growing for 4 years in a ceramic container, the roots have gone crazy running around the bottom and pushed the tree an inch up out of the pot:
The 5 year old repotted into a large collander from the chinese supply place:
And the 9YO pine repotted into the same; I'm using mostly pumice now since Akadama is not readily available at the moment:
I've been doing some repotting of some of my pines in baskets and those of a friend who is following the same process. Thought you all might be interested to see a couple photos of what the roots look like after a few years.
First, the side of a rootball pulled from a pond basket after 3 years in the container in San Francisco (so cool summers, but good water and good fertilization):
The same rootball bottom. This tree is being transferred to a larger basket and the circling roots that are on the bottom are to be removed. Overall there is good root density throughout the container, it was Boon's mix for soil, medium size. The image of the side is a bit deceiving because there appear to be few roots, but when we raked the side below a layer of soil particles was an even crop of root tips:
One of my 9YO pines coming out of a double basket after 4 growing seasons in the larger basket. I do not recommend the double container technique to anyone and I'm only repotting this one because the large basket broke. The soil inside the smaller basket is overly dense with roots and the root density in the larger basket is better. The container has a ton of micorrhiza. In the end I have to cut off all the roots outside the smaller basket and then a mat of roots along the inner sides and bottom. The roots growing through the smaller basket in a few places are woody which makes removing the basket difficult.
By comparison this is the rootball of an older pine, growing for 4 years in a ceramic container, the roots have gone crazy running around the bottom and pushed the tree an inch up out of the pot:
The 5 year old repotted into a large collander from the chinese supply place:
And the 9YO pine repotted into the same; I'm using mostly pumice now since Akadama is not readily available at the moment:
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
a thousand words.
nothing says it like a picture.... thanks for documenting!
nothing says it like a picture.... thanks for documenting!
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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You got that right! It was this particular thread that got me interested in starting pines from seedlings. Now, I've got 50 JBP in pots/pond baskets with another 25 coming today (thanks to pwk5107/Patrick
). If any of my trees eventually look remotely like those pictured in this thread, I will be extremely happy. Thanks for the inspiration!october
Masterpiece
Outstanding work. The one in post 46 with the cloth covering the top. That is an incredible example of an informal upright. Branch placement and proportion is perfect. In a good way.
Rob
Rob
Hey Eric,
Have you ever grown any of these pines in the ground? do you think they would grow faster than growing them in pond baskets?? I have a bit of ground space to plant some trees into and dont know which would give the better/faster results ie using pond baskets vs planting directly into the ground?
I may try both... such a super thread Eric, thanks so much for sharing it with us.
Drew
Have you ever grown any of these pines in the ground? do you think they would grow faster than growing them in pond baskets?? I have a bit of ground space to plant some trees into and dont know which would give the better/faster results ie using pond baskets vs planting directly into the ground?
I may try both... such a super thread Eric, thanks so much for sharing it with us.
Drew
Eric Schrader
Chumono
Drew,
They will grow faster in the ground. But the root base will be far inferior. In the ground the roots will run and be straight, in a colander they will run, hit the air and then bud back.
Here is a tree that I repotted recently from the now 8 year old batch. This was grown in a colander, then potted into a larger colander without removing the smaller one. So now, because it's becoming rootbound I've gone in a trimmed the roots back and put it into a new large container:
I've trimmed the large root at left here because this is to be a formal upright and it was too high and too large compared to the rest of the roots. Notice the even, radial root mass. The remaining root ball is almost solid, I was having a difficult time getting in there. In the future the bottom will be reduced more:
The vigor of the trees in the ground can be a problem for the node length as well. If you want to get faster results for a larger tree; finish size 16" high or larger, I would recommend following the technique in BT#20 or the stone lantern pine book, for the first 5 years. Also, take a look at this article I wrote since I recommend a couple changes to the technique:
http://www.bssf.org/project/november-2013-general-meeting-black-pine/
After the seedling is 5 years old, perhaps having been in a large colander for a year already, place the colander on the ground and allow the roots to run from the bottom. Water the top just like it was still on a bench. I would sever the roots every 2 years and likely you may have to repot as well. The results will be faster and you should get good radial root spread since you maintain the smaller roots near the surface in the colander. I should say I haven't actually tried this, but I'm going to with a few of my pines that I want to be much larger than the rest. This also should solve the problem of overly large surface roots from field-grown stock.
Good growing and good luck!
They will grow faster in the ground. But the root base will be far inferior. In the ground the roots will run and be straight, in a colander they will run, hit the air and then bud back.
Here is a tree that I repotted recently from the now 8 year old batch. This was grown in a colander, then potted into a larger colander without removing the smaller one. So now, because it's becoming rootbound I've gone in a trimmed the roots back and put it into a new large container:
I've trimmed the large root at left here because this is to be a formal upright and it was too high and too large compared to the rest of the roots. Notice the even, radial root mass. The remaining root ball is almost solid, I was having a difficult time getting in there. In the future the bottom will be reduced more:
The vigor of the trees in the ground can be a problem for the node length as well. If you want to get faster results for a larger tree; finish size 16" high or larger, I would recommend following the technique in BT#20 or the stone lantern pine book, for the first 5 years. Also, take a look at this article I wrote since I recommend a couple changes to the technique:
http://www.bssf.org/project/november-2013-general-meeting-black-pine/
After the seedling is 5 years old, perhaps having been in a large colander for a year already, place the colander on the ground and allow the roots to run from the bottom. Water the top just like it was still on a bench. I would sever the roots every 2 years and likely you may have to repot as well. The results will be faster and you should get good radial root spread since you maintain the smaller roots near the surface in the colander. I should say I haven't actually tried this, but I'm going to with a few of my pines that I want to be much larger than the rest. This also should solve the problem of overly large surface roots from field-grown stock.
Good growing and good luck!
discusmike
Omono
Nice root spread n base Eric, that tree has a bright future.
Thanks very much for sharing. You're getting really great results, particularly at the base. Like Dav4, after seeing this thread, I ended up buying a bunch of JBP seedlings from Matt Ouwinga. Will see what I have in 15 years
Just out of curiosity, in post 47, you mention that you don't recommend the double colander technique, yet it looks like you're getting amazing results. Would you just recommend slip potting the tree into a larger container every year instead of using two colanders?
On ground growing, I've been growing out a JBP in the ground for the past 3-4 years that was planted on top of a tile. It originally started as a fairly uninteresting tree that was about 3/4" in caliper and about a foot high. It's now close to 12' in height with a 3" trunk, but the base from what I can tell doesn't seem to have the character of the bases that you are getting (nor is the bark as nice). Interestingly, even after combing out the roots radially and planting it on top of a tile, I'm getting a couple of crossing/circling roots. Even with ground growing, I can see leaving the tree in the ground for 10 years to get a decent trunk for a chuhin size tree.
Just out of curiosity, in post 47, you mention that you don't recommend the double colander technique, yet it looks like you're getting amazing results. Would you just recommend slip potting the tree into a larger container every year instead of using two colanders?
On ground growing, I've been growing out a JBP in the ground for the past 3-4 years that was planted on top of a tile. It originally started as a fairly uninteresting tree that was about 3/4" in caliper and about a foot high. It's now close to 12' in height with a 3" trunk, but the base from what I can tell doesn't seem to have the character of the bases that you are getting (nor is the bark as nice). Interestingly, even after combing out the roots radially and planting it on top of a tile, I'm getting a couple of crossing/circling roots. Even with ground growing, I can see leaving the tree in the ground for 10 years to get a decent trunk for a chuhin size tree.
Eric Schrader
Chumono
Yes, just slip the tree out of the smaller collander and put it in a larger one. The BT article says that you don't want to touch the roots....but I think that for the future benefit of the tree that it's actually better to do some root work around year 6-8 since it's been then 4-6 years since the last root work. This may slow down the process slightly, but since we're after quality I think it's worth it.
I'd recommend starting in a colander to establish the basal root flare, then ground growing for a few years. You will always have to eliminate crossing and circling roots no matter how careful you are when you comb them out.
garywood
Chumono
Drew,
They will grow faster in the ground. But the root base will be far inferior. In the ground the roots will run and be straight, in a colander they will run, hit the air and then bud back.
Here is a tree that I repotted recently from the now 8 year old batch. This was grown in a colander, then potted into a larger colander without removing the smaller one. So now, because it's becoming rootbound I've gone in a trimmed the roots back and put it into a new large container:
I've trimmed the large root at left here because this is to be a formal upright and it was too high and too large compared to the rest of the roots. Notice the even, radial root mass. The remaining root ball is almost solid, I was having a difficult time getting in there. In the future the bottom will be reduced more:
The vigor of the trees in the ground can be a problem for the node length as well. If you want to get faster results for a larger tree; finish size 16" high or larger, I would recommend following the technique in BT#20 or the stone lantern pine book, for the first 5 years. Also, take a look at this article I wrote since I recommend a couple changes to the technique:
http://www.bssf.org/project/november-2013-general-meeting-black-pine/
After the seedling is 5 years old, perhaps having been in a large colander for a year already, place the colander on the ground and allow the roots to run from the bottom. Water the top just like it was still on a bench. I would sever the roots every 2 years and likely you may have to repot as well. The results will be faster and you should get good radial root spread since you maintain the smaller roots near the surface in the colander. I should say I haven't actually tried this, but I'm going to with a few of my pines that I want to be much larger than the rest. This also should solve the problem of overly large surface roots from field-grown stock.
Good growing and good luck!
Just ran across this. Interesting back budding Eric. I don't see much evidence of candle pruning.
Eric Schrader
Chumono
Yes, you are correct. I only candle cut the smaller branches when I see that they are starting to get too vigorous. For these young trees the small buds on the trunk were generally inhibited by the vigorous growth of the leader.
Apart from that, I think there are some effects here from my move to SoCal and back. While down there things slowed down a bit while I sorted out the water and nutrient problems. Because of the dry constant winds during the winter I removed the tops of the sacrifice branches after year 5 or 6. That encouraged the lower buds a little but for some of the trees they still just sat without much growth.
I should say that different people approach sacrifice branches differently. e.g. whether you prune them or leave them completely alone. Some people say remove the side branches on the sacrifice while others say leave as much as you can to contribute to the trunk fattening. For me - I only removed those parts that were shading the lower trunk or otherwise problematic. The inhibition of the lateral small buds may be greater due to the larger mass of foliage above.
For the tree that you commented about there is the main sacrifice branch and then the wired future top which also has been let go. I believe I decandled the branches on this tree once in the last three years. Others in the same batch were decandled twice. This one had a large portion of the sacrifice removed this fall so it will likely be decandled next summer to keep the low branches small. Time for a new sacrifice leader to start the taper. I've been quite concerned up to this point with the node length on this tree, but now that I have the next portion of the trunk set in place with short nodes I can allow the vigor of it to increase so that it fattens quickly.
garywood
Chumono
Good work Eric! it's just good to see someone growing a candle without worrying about auxin inhibition in context of the whole tree
bloodysafety
Seedling
Have you ever had your water tested? You may not even need RO. Take the ppm reading for each nute from the test and incorporate it into your overall formula. There's several free programs out there like hydo-buddy or salt smarts. :2cents:
Eric Schrader
Chumono
Well, this is moot since I no longer live in SoCal and SF water is really good. But if you could have seen how the trees grew on the tap water versus how they grew on RO and DynaGro you'd agree with me. I had a TDS tester and was getting about 250ppm. The city water report listed 55ppm sodium if I remember correctly. That's far too high for good plant growth from what I've read in a couple plant phys books.
Cheers,
Eric
