A learning experience: Lost 5 collected Black Spruce this June.

[JPH]

June has been rough going. Within only a few weeks of each other I lost five of my six collected Black spruce. All of the symptoms were the same. Sudden drying of the needles followed by yellowing and finally massive needle drop. It's a little heartbreaking as I was excited about them, but I need to look at this in a logical way. I obviously did something wrong. So changes must be made to how I collect and care for these trees. I'm hoping this will be a valuable learning experience. I don't believe in hiding my failures.

Here are some key points.

- All but one of the trees were collected in late fall. About a month before the first snow. The other tree was collected in early spring.
- Most of these trees had excellent root systems when they came out of the ground. None were bare rooted.
- They were planted in wooden boxes made from recycled pallet wood (not pressure treated or painted).
- The substrate for all but one was 1/4" fir bark. Good drainage and doesn't decompose quickly. One of the smaller trees was planted in pure living sphagnum (this tree had poor roots but was the last to die...).
- All trees appeared to survive winter and spring. It was only during June that they rapidly declined.
- They were watered attentively. Kept moist but not sopping wet. I also misted the foliage to maintain humidity.
- In the Fall, I had my trees on a table I built from scrap wood, but later moved them to the ground.
- They were placed on the leeward side of the house, protected from the harsh wind, and received morning sun/afternoon shade.
- Interestingly, my Tamaracks are doing just fine and pushing new needles like crazy. They were treated the same way.
- I have one Spruce left which was collected later in the season. I'll admit that I did a much better job at transplanting this one. But I'll be watching it very closely.

So, what do you think? I have a few hypotheses.

1. Collecting Spruce in late fall might have been a mistake. Since they put on most of their root growth in the fall season, I might have undone what the tree worked hard to build during the previous weeks/months.
2. Heat sensitivity. Is it true that Spruce move water much less efficiently than a Tamarack (Larch)? This coupled with root damage during collection may have prevented the Spruce from cooling themselves adequately.
3. Root damage from the cold? They appeared totally fine in the spring. However they showed no signs of new growth.
4. Too rough/aggressive with the roots + Poor anchoring. Many of my earlier trees wobbled a lot. I've since become much better at anchoring my trees.

Please let me know your thoughts.

 

[Colorado]

The gold standard of substrate for collecting conifers is pumice. This is what the pros and serious collectors use. I’d start there.

Also don’t think late fall is an ideal time. The collectors that I know of will place trees on a heat mat for the winter that are collected in fall.

Hope this helps!

 

[PonderingSage:]

Thats rough, and sounds a lot like me loosing junipers at the start of spring with with some fall collected trees. If possible next time give them a bit more time recovering before winter hits.
Try getting them in the box without toying with the roots much. Maybe try a vertical support to secure the tree from moving like in this image.

 

[Kadebe]

June has been rough going. Within only a few weeks of each other I lost five of my six collected Black spruce. All of the symptoms were the same. Sudden drying of the needles followed by yellowing and finally massive needle drop. It's a little heartbreaking as I was excited about them, but I need to look at this in a logical way. I obviously did something wrong. So changes must be made to how I collect and care for these trees. I'm hoping this will be a valuable learning experience. I don't believe in hiding my failures.

Here are some key points.

- All but one of the trees were collected in late fall. About a month before the first snow. The other tree was collected in early spring.
- Most of these trees had excellent root systems when they came out of the ground. None were bare rooted.
- They were planted in wooden boxes made from recycled pallet wood (not pressure treated or painted).
- The substrate for all but one was 1/4" fir bark. Good drainage and doesn't decompose quickly. One of the smaller trees was planted in pure living sphagnum (this tree had poor roots but was the last to die...).
- All trees appeared to survive winter and spring. It was only during June that they rapidly declined.
- They were watered attentively. Kept moist but not sopping wet. I also misted the foliage to maintain humidity.
- In the Fall, I had my trees on a table I built from scrap wood, but later moved them to the ground.
- They were placed on the leeward side of the house, protected from the harsh wind, and received morning sun/afternoon shade.
- Interestingly, my Tamaracks are doing just fine and pushing new needles like crazy. They were treated the same way.
- I have one Spruce left which was collected later in the season. I'll admit that I did a much better job at transplanting this one. But I'll be watching it very closely.

So, what do you think? I have a few hypotheses.

1. Collecting Spruce in late fall might have been a mistake. Since they put on most of their root growth in the fall season, I might have undone what the tree worked hard to build during the previous weeks/months.
2. Heat sensitivity. Is it true that Spruce move water much less efficiently than a Tamarack (Larch)? This coupled with root damage during collection may have prevented the Spruce from cooling themselves adequately.
3. Root damage from the cold? They appeared totally fine in the spring. However they showed no signs of new growth.
4. Too rough/aggressive with the roots + Poor anchoring. Many of my earlier trees wobbled a lot. I've since become much better at anchoring my trees.

Please let me know your thoughts.

I am sorry to hear that you have experienced this. On the other hand, I wouldn't call this a learning experience, but a waste.
I don't know to what extent you have experience in collecting yamadori... I certainly don't. I haven't dug one out myself yet. My plan is to do this for the first time this fall, under the guidance of an experienced person.

I also wonder why 6 piece at once? Wouldn't it be better to try just one? And if this one survives for a year, you know you've done well.

 

[berzerkules]

I've had trouble with spruce too. I collected about a dozen little ones early last year and half of them just didn't wake up this spring. The ones that did survive are looking rough. Surprisingly the one spruce that's doing the best right now was the one that limped through all of last year, I though for sure winter would kill it.

Losing them spruce discouraged me from collecting conifers this spring. I've had really high success collecting deciduous through out the year and all of them survived winter, conifers just throw me through a loop. I'll have to read up as much as I can this winter about collecting spruce and come back at it more informed and better prepared next year.

 

[Kanorin]

June has been rough going. Within only a few weeks of each other I lost five of my six collected Black spruce. All of the symptoms were the same. Sudden drying of the needles followed by yellowing and finally massive needle drop. It's a little heartbreaking as I was excited about them, but I need to look at this in a logical way. I obviously did something wrong. So changes must be made to how I collect and care for these trees. I'm hoping this will be a valuable learning experience. I don't believe in hiding my failures.

Here are some key points.

- All but one of the trees were collected in late fall. About a month before the first snow. The other tree was collected in early spring.
- Most of these trees had excellent root systems when they came out of the ground. None were bare rooted.
- They were planted in wooden boxes made from recycled pallet wood (not pressure treated or painted).
- The substrate for all but one was 1/4" fir bark. Good drainage and doesn't decompose quickly. One of the smaller trees was planted in pure living sphagnum (this tree had poor roots but was the last to die...).
- All trees appeared to survive winter and spring. It was only during June that they rapidly declined.
- They were watered attentively. Kept moist but not sopping wet. I also misted the foliage to maintain humidity.
- In the Fall, I had my trees on a table I built from scrap wood, but later moved them to the ground.
- They were placed on the leeward side of the house, protected from the harsh wind, and received morning sun/afternoon shade.
- Interestingly, my Tamaracks are doing just fine and pushing new needles like crazy. They were treated the same way.
- I have one Spruce left which was collected later in the season. I'll admit that I did a much better job at transplanting this one. But I'll be watching it very closely.

So, what do you think? I have a few hypotheses.

1. Collecting Spruce in late fall might have been a mistake. Since they put on most of their root growth in the fall season, I might have undone what the tree worked hard to build during the previous weeks/months.
2. Heat sensitivity. Is it true that Spruce move water much less efficiently than a Tamarack (Larch)? This coupled with root damage during collection may have prevented the Spruce from cooling themselves adequately.
3. Root damage from the cold? They appeared totally fine in the spring. However they showed no signs of new growth.
4. Too rough/aggressive with the roots + Poor anchoring. Many of my earlier trees wobbled a lot. I've since become much better at anchoring my trees.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Here's my guess on the two main culprits:
"3. Root damage from the cold? They appeared totally fine in the spring. However they showed no signs of new growth." Note that cuttings with no roots whatsoever can limp along for several months...especially if they are provided humidity. But they will not put out and sustain new growth if they do not develop roots. The people I know who fall collect usually overwinter newly collected specimens in a greenhouse or garage that stays slightly above freezing. You mention putting them ON the ground, but not IN the ground. How cold does it get in the winter where you live?

5. Not enough oxygen for the roots. As @Colorado said, pumice is the gold standard for post-collection recovery. Coarse pumice (around 1/4 to 1/2 inch is probably ideal based on what others have told me). Fir bark probably held a little too much water and not enough oxygen for the spruce. Apparently Larch roots may like things a little bit wetter.

 

[JPH]

The gold standard of substrate for collecting conifers is pumice. This is what the pros and serious collectors use. I’d start there.

I'm aware but I live in such a remote community that getting pumice shipped to me in any kind of usable quantity is extremely expensive. So I went with the bark as I could get it by the cubic foot. If you are aware of a supplier of pumice in Canada who will ship north at a reasonable cost I'd love to know.

Try getting them in the box without toying with the roots much. Maybe try a vertical support to secure the tree from moving like in this image.

I appreciate the image! I've gotten better at doing this. I have a single Spruce left that seems to be doing well. Collected it June 3rd. It appears to be pushing new buds already. Here is a picture:

I am sorry to hear that you have experienced this. On the other hand, I wouldn't call this a learning experience, but a waste.
I don't know to what extent you have experience in collecting yamadori... I certainly don't. I haven't dug one out myself yet. My plan is to do this for the first time this fall, under the guidance of an experienced person.

I also wonder why 6 piece at once? Wouldn't it be better to try just one? And if this one survives for a year, you know you've done well.

I'd argue that it would only be a waste if I didn't learn from it. We all try and fail at things. I'm not shying away from the fact that I failed this time. You might find that even with guidance survival is not guaranteed. I'm happy that you have access to an experienced collector. But I do not. I live over a thousand kilometers from the nearest city. I am the only person in my community with an interest in bonsai. All I have at my disposal are videos/forums/trial and error. We don't even have a garden center. Yamadori is quite literally my only option.

You may disagree, but I don't think collecting a single tree per season is a good way to learn anything. A tree can die for any number of reasons. Underwatering/overwatering. Extreme temperature. Wind exposure. Root damage. Pests. Etc... If you collect 10 trees and 5 survive, you can find patterns and identify mistakes much faster. Again you may disagree with the ethics of this, but the areas I collect from routinely have full sized spruce cut down to build traditional shelters (about 14 trees per dwelling). I've seen trees I wanted to collect get crushed/destroyed by ATVs. I can also show you a picture of an entire area that has been clear-cut to make way for housing. This area had many beautiful trees which would have made excellent Bonsai.

But I digress. I'm not interested in discussing the ethics of collecting trees here. I'm interested in learning from my mistakes so that the trees I collect in the future have a better chance at survival.

How cold does it get in the winter where you live?

Somewhere between -25C and -45C. Extremely cold. I'm planning to build a shelter for my trees this fall. Putting them into the ground also sounds like a really good idea! Thanks!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Let me start off that I think it's pretty brave to publish your story online. Not everyone of us is that honest and not everyone of us dares to face the public when collected trees die.

Bark can be problematic because when it dries out, it takes a proper soaking to get it wet again. Once it starts degrading, the microbes that eat it will use up all the oxygen and either start fermening or push out a lot of CO2. I'm a cheapskate, absolutely. So I try a lot of stuff for cheaps, but knowing that a single good yamadori will cost me at least 200 bucks from a bonsai store.. Soil for collected trees is an acceptable expense. Maybe you could go with perlite instead.

Poor anchoring and being too rough on the roots can be a death blow too. Especially in spruce, where it can take ages to recover a damaged root system. I've been monitoring mine for three years now and it seems like they are the slowest part of the tree once they get some age to them.

You may disagree, but I don't think collecting a single tree per season is a good way to learn anything.

I do disagree to some extent. Without being judgmental I'd say that you can learn more from less than four trees compared to six. I say this because I know how hard it is to keep track of every single one and zone in on what caused it to go belly up. Now you know that the entire method failed, instead of finding out a single point of failure. That makes it difficult to adapt in the future. A complete review of the method can be wise, but it'll take a lot of effort.
The first year I went collecting pines, I picked four. One of them died and I figured out it was the wobble. That was it. Everything else was done right. I was left with three good trees that are still alive.
The next year I collected three. One died. It was the timing: start of summer. Because all other factors were exactly the same.
I'm now pretty confident I have the knowledge on what critical points to look out for, what preparations to make and what the best timing for my climate is. But we all learn in a different way. It might've worked for me, but that doesn't mean it will work for you.

 

[Shogun610]

Sorry to hear , it’s definitely a learning experience and disheartening. But I read your whole synopsis and diagnosis which lead me to one conclusion, the substrate.
the substrate I use for All collected is Pumice , adding some akadama if it’s spruce for water retention but usually 100% pumice. The collection time isn’t off , but when collecting material in fall, sheltering from freezing conditions and ensuring roots have a heat mat is key, usually the first year post collection the roots will not go dormant , but 1 year of that is ok as long as they go fully dormant the next year. Spring is always your best bet , different in higher elevations with snow and access but that is a good time too. I’m still learning the nuances with aftercare when it comes to pest and molds which is a eye opener for sure of navigating proper diagnostic and control of that external factor outside of collecting which is in the persons control. Collecting as much of roots with soil intact, and proper anchorage to ensure roots stabilize is key as well, with good substrate of pumice.
Get back out there this fall and next spring and utilize what you’ve learned. No waste in this experience as We’ve all lost trees , heck I still may lose , there are so many factors that can lead to issues in the practice of bonsai. It’s f*ckn brutal sometimes brother. Good luck and stay hungry.

 

[penumbra]

My heart goes out to the trees.
You didn't have them long enough to experience loss.
Its not personal, its just the way I feel about trees.
Better luck in any future collecting endeavors.

 

[Kanorin]

Bark can be problematic because when it dries out, it takes a proper soaking to get it wet again. Once it starts degrading, the microbes that eat it will use up all the oxygen and either start fermening or push out a lot of CO2. I'm a cheapskate, absolutely. So I try a lot of stuff for cheaps, but knowing that a single good yamadori will cost me at least 200 bucks from a bonsai store.. Soil for collected trees is an acceptable expense. Maybe you could go with perlite instead.

Maybe a 50:50 mix of bark+ coarse perlite might be a step in the right direction, then top dress with some sphagnum so the perlite doesn't all blow away.

Somewhere between -25C and -45C. Extremely cold. I'm planning to build a shelter for my trees this fall. Putting them into the ground also sounds like a really good idea! Thanks!

Agree. Digging them into the ground a bit and building some kind of cold frame structure around that is probably going to up your survival numbers by a lot.

 

[JPH]

Let me start off that I think it's pretty brave to publish your story online. Not everyone of us is that honest and not everyone of us dares to face the public when collected trees die.

Appreciate that but the worst that could happen is someone on the internet thinks I'm an A**Hole. Which is fine lol! . I made a promise to myself that I'd be open about my failings if I was going to start posting about my trees.

Bark can be problematic because when it dries out, it takes a proper soaking to get it wet again. Once it starts degrading, the microbes that eat it will use up all the oxygen and either start fermening or push out a lot of CO2. I'm a cheapskate, absolutely. So I try a lot of stuff for cheaps, but knowing that a single good yamadori will cost me at least 200 bucks from a bonsai store.. Soil for collected trees is an acceptable expense. Maybe you could go with perlite instead.

Super informative and I'll see about getting a few bags of perlite shipped to me. Thanks!

I do disagree to some extent. Without being judgmental I'd say that you can learn more from less than four trees compared to six. I say this because I know how hard it is to keep track of every single one and zone in on what caused it to go belly up. Now you know that the entire method failed, instead of finding out a single point of failure. That makes it difficult to adapt in the future. A complete review of the method can be wise, but it'll take a lot of effort.
The first year I went collecting pines, I picked four. One of them died and I figured out it was the wobble. That was it. Everything else was done right. I was left with three good trees that are still alive.
The next year I collected three. One died. It was the timing: start of summer. Because all other factors were exactly the same.
I'm now pretty confident I have the knowledge on what critical points to look out for, what preparations to make and what the best timing for my climate is. But we all learn in a different way. It might've worked for me, but that doesn't mean it will work for you.

Your logical approach is very refreshing. I appreciate this very much!

 

[Shogun610]

Maybe a 50:50 mix of bark+ coarse perlite might be a step in the right direction, then top dress with some sphagnum so the perlite doesn't all blow away.

Agree. Digging them into the ground a bit and building some kind of cold frame structure around that is probably going to up your survival numbers by a lot.

No bark or perlite … Pumice. It’s long tested and verified, no bark or perlite ever on collected conifers.

 

[JPH]

No bark or perlite … Pumice. It’s long tested and verified, no bark or perlite ever on collected conifers.

I understand that. But I can't get it in any kind of usable quantity. Unless someone could help me find a bulk supplier. All I could find are tiny bags from specialty shops and many other sites I've tried won't ship to me at all.

No waste in this experience as We’ve all lost trees , heck I still may lose , there are so many factors that can lead to issues in the practice of bonsai. It’s f*ckn brutal sometimes brother. Good luck and stay hungry.

Appreciate that dude. And I'll for sure apply what I've learned.

 

[Kanorin]

Not sure if they will ship to Canada, but this seems like a good option for bulk pumice. Hess Pumice - the ponics stone standard should be good for collected material.

 

[Colorado]

I understand that. But I can't get it in any kind of usable quantity. Unless someone could help me find a bulk supplier. All I could find are tiny bags from specialty shops and many other sites I've tried won't ship to me at all.

Appreciate that dude. And I'll for sure apply what I've learned.

Google says that Amazon ships to Canada.

You don’t need THAT much pumice. If you are building your boxes correctly, there shouldn’t be that much room between the root ball and the box.

The other nice thing about pumice is that after you’ve purchased some, a lot of it can be reused for subsequent repotting. I recycle almost all of my pumice, haven’t had to buy new pumice in years.

 

[JPH]

Google says that Amazon ships to Canada.

Yes... But again I live in a remote area of Canada. Amazon shipping is exorbitant even when I try to use the Canadian site... Not just for pumice. The second I put in my postal code the shipping costs skyrocket. Amazon thinks we are a fly-in zone. We've tried to correct the issue but they don't want to hear it. Please trust me on this.

 

[sorce]

Your timing was probably a little late.

I think soil, or lack of soil, structure, is the killer.

I'd toss that fir bark in a good compost pile and use that with some local something, anything closest to "bonsai soil".

As long as you don't kill your soil with chemicals, a good fungally dominated composty soil will hold its own structure.

Eff perlite, if you can catch it.

Sorce

 

[penumbra]

I realize the pumice is the go to for almost everyone here. But Sorce's comment above rings true. Three years back I collected several oaks, cherries, VA pines, maples and a few other trees off my property. None were large but it was just an experiment. The trees were all dormant, I believe it was March. All the trees went into nursery pots with their own poor native soil and coarse compost. Not one died.

 

[JPH]

I think soil, or lack of soil, structure, is the killer.

a good fungally dominated composty soil will hold its own structure.

Just to clarify you suggest that I use the bark as an amendment in a "composty" soil? In order to get that I might have to dig some from outside. The local hardware store only carries lawn seed... I do make terrariums and I just mix up the local ground cover into a "fluffy" soil which drains pretty well. What would you think about that?

I realize the pumice is the go to for almost everyone here. But Sorce's comment above rings true. Three years back I collected several oaks, cherries, VA pines, maples and a few other trees off my property. None were large but it was just an experiment. The trees were all dormant, I believe it was March. All the trees went into nursery pots with their own poor native soil and coarse compost. Not one died.

This is very interesting to me! I know a few areas I can get a good fluffy substrate. I'll get my shovel!