A. p. seedlings

[gergwebber]

I am posting these maple seedlings because they offer an interesting idea for future seedling development.

As I have visited nearly every park in town with my young son over the past year(there are lots of parks in Davis) I have noticed several things about volunteer seedlings growing in the parks.

1) Seedlings growing where irrigation hits them will have generally shallow roots.(obviously)
2) Seedlings growing in ground cover, such as wood chips, sand or stone, tend to have naturally twisted trunks.
3)Seedlings growing in older wood chips tend to have twisted trunks, and an abundance of feeder roots close to the base of the seedling (the beginnings of a great nebari).

Now to the point. I wonder if this offers an alternative to Smoke's screen growing method? Can it be reproduced in flats? Does anyone know of similar efforts?

These maples were lifted from a gravel drive way in the spring of 2012 as buds began growing. The gravel was a round river stone screened around 1". A large Acer p. grew over the driveway and dropped seeds in the stone on a yearly basis. The adjacent bed had a round retaining wall, and was watered with overhead sprays of various sizes and arcs. (they always throw overspray)

what do you think? are the bends in the trunks worth experimenting with more controlled setups? I have seen similar bends in the trunks of seedlings growing in wood-chipped beds, has anyone also noticed similar situations?

pics 1-2 spring 2013.
pics 3-4 fall 2013

 

[gergwebber]

this is what I am considering:

 

[Eric Schrader]

this is what I am considering:

I couldn't say that there was anything wrong with trying that. I would think you would get a lot of subtle movement in the trunk. But perhaps not enough gross movement to make the trunk an interesting bonsai?

I once took a maple seedling that was growing in the ground in my father's yard under his large JM and pinned down the leader with a large rock. The tree was 2-3' high and I just bent it over with the rock and left it there. The bend set and I later went and dug it up. What I found after some study of the tree in a container was that the movement didn't really lend itself well to a bonsai design that I like. It had a lot of gross movement but no subtle movement within the gross movement. I think you need both for a really great trunk. Perhaps combining your idea with wiring the trunk would be good.

For me, this is a good example of something to strive toward, but different people have different ideas:

 

[gergwebber]

well obviously I am striving towards that

 

[edprocoat]

well obviously I am striving towards that

Yup, we are all striving for that.

ed

 

[Eric Schrader]

well obviously I am striving towards that

I think I learned more in 2 hours of standing in the yard of Mr. Ebihara outside of Tokyo about growing maples than I had learned in 5 years leading up to it. Mr. Ebihara has passed now but his trees are still around Japan. You can see some references to him on Bonsai Tonight, there are three articles if you search "Ebihara".

I made an "instruction" sheet for a workshop I did recently. I'm attaching it here. The basic technique is to take a young maple that is a couple feet tall, wire the trunk into the final shape and then grow out the finished branches and sacrifice branches all at the same time. The sacrifice branches should be carefully selected and let run while the finish branches are more carefully crafted. No trunk chops! Figure 4 is the trunk that you're after, but is not intended to indicate that you remove all the branches.

Ebihara grew things in the ground with a "container" above it for the nebari. I think he developed so many techniques that I couldn't even list them all. Obviously my instruction sheet is only a beginning. The specific root techniques used on pines were used by him (air pruning) as well as partial removal of sacrifice branches (see bonsai tonight), moving of finished branches from one place to another with grafting techniques etc.

 

[63pmp]

Thanks Eric,

Your saying Ebihara allowed the roots from the bottom of the tree to escape the pot into the ground?

This allows the trunk to develop quickly, while enabling the nebari to develop slowly?

With tridents (and J. maples) I have wondered about the nebari getting ahead of the trunk and branches, this opens a new door for me, thanks.

Paul

 

[Dav4]

I think I learned more in 2 hours of standing in the yard of Mr. Ebihara outside of Tokyo about growing maples than I had learned in 5 years leading up to it. Mr. Ebihara has passed now but his trees are still around Japan. You can see some references to him on Bonsai Tonight, there are three articles if you search "Ebihara".

I made an "instruction" sheet for a workshop I did recently. I'm attaching it here. The basic technique is to take a young maple that is a couple feet tall, wire the trunk into the final shape and then grow out the finished branches and sacrifice branches all at the same time. The sacrifice branches should be carefully selected and let run while the finish branches are more carefully crafted. No trunk chops! Figure 4 is the trunk that you're after, but is not intended to indicate that you remove all the branches.

Ebihara grew things in the ground with a "container" above it for the nebari. I think he developed so many techniques that I couldn't even list them all. Obviously my instruction sheet is only a beginning. The specific root techniques used on pines were used by him (air pruning) as well as partial removal of sacrifice branches (see bonsai tonight), moving of finished branches from one place to another with grafting techniques etc.

Awesome post!!!!! Eye opening to say the least.

 

[AboveBeyond]

This is really a helpful thread! The pot above ground is fascinating.

 

[fore]

This reminds me of my visit to Michael Hagedorns. He has his JM's in 2" ?18"x18" wood containers that are on the ground on top of weed block. He's developing some marvelous nebaris using this method.

 

[JudyB]

Brent of Evergreen gardenworks has long advocated escape growing potted plants.

I have long thought that building a tree without chops is possible and also preferable, this is a good post, with good ideas. Something we could use a little more of around here...

 

[Poink88]

The basic technique is to take a young maple that is a couple feet tall, wire the trunk into the final shape and then grow out the finished branches and sacrifice branches all at the same time. The sacrifice branches should be carefully selected and let run while the finish branches are more carefully crafted. No trunk chops!

Great post.

This is my plan, currently doing (on some), and trying to explain. I just cannot explain it as well so most cannot grasp it.

This is what I have been calling..."having your cake and eat it too." A hybrid and faster/better way IMHO.

THANKS!!!

 

[MACH5]

I am posting these maple seedlings because they offer an interesting idea for future seedling development.

As I have visited nearly every park in town with my young son over the past year(there are lots of parks in Davis) I have noticed several things about volunteer seedlings growing in the parks.

1) Seedlings growing where irrigation hits them will have generally shallow roots.(obviously)
2) Seedlings growing in ground cover, such as wood chips, sand or stone, tend to have naturally twisted trunks.
3)Seedlings growing in older wood chips tend to have twisted trunks, and an abundance of feeder roots close to the base of the seedling (the beginnings of a great nebari).

Now to the point. I wonder if this offers an alternative to Smoke's screen growing method? Can it be reproduced in flats? Does anyone know of similar efforts?

These maples were lifted from a gravel drive way in the spring of 2012 as buds began growing. The gravel was a round river stone screened around 1". A large Acer p. grew over the driveway and dropped seeds in the stone on a yearly basis. The adjacent bed had a round retaining wall, and was watered with overhead sprays of various sizes and arcs. (they always throw overspray)

what do you think? are the bends in the trunks worth experimenting with more controlled setups? I have seen similar bends in the trunks of seedlings growing in wood-chipped beds, has anyone also noticed similar situations?

pics 1-2 spring 2013.
pics 3-4 fall 2013

Yes worth playing with these naturally bent maples. I don't see why not. However, as Eric mentioned earlier, you will end up with very subtle movement by the time these seedlings mature. You have to place more emphasis on your bends from the get go to get noticeable movement. It also depends on what you want. There are examples of maples (or other trees in general) that have subtle movement that are good/great bonsai too. Excellence in bonsai design and subtle movement are not mutually exclusive.

I am guessing that you were drawn to these seedlings initially because they were naturally created? However in many cases the hand of man must intervene to help give our trees good movement and interesting shapes. The key being is that the final product looks natural and not at all man made.

 

[MACH5]

I think I learned more in 2 hours of standing in the yard of Mr. Ebihara outside of Tokyo about growing maples than I had learned in 5 years leading up to it. Mr. Ebihara has passed now but his trees are still around Japan. You can see some references to him on Bonsai Tonight, there are three articles if you search "Ebihara".

I made an "instruction" sheet for a workshop I did recently. I'm attaching it here. The basic technique is to take a young maple that is a couple feet tall, wire the trunk into the final shape and then grow out the finished branches and sacrifice branches all at the same time. The sacrifice branches should be carefully selected and let run while the finish branches are more carefully crafted. No trunk chops! Figure 4 is the trunk that you're after, but is not intended to indicate that you remove all the branches.

Ebihara grew things in the ground with a "container" above it for the nebari. I think he developed so many techniques that I couldn't even list them all. Obviously my instruction sheet is only a beginning. The specific root techniques used on pines were used by him (air pruning) as well as partial removal of sacrifice branches (see bonsai tonight), moving of finished branches from one place to another with grafting techniques etc.

This is great! I knew about this technique of "escape" planting but have not tried yet. I think I definitely will now!


Incidentally I am now trying one of Ebihara's techniques of moving a mature, developed branch from its original place to another area within the same tree in order to improve its design. So far so good. I plan on posting this in 2015.

 

[RobertB]

This is a great thread. Bumping for other newbies like me.

 

[jriddell88]

This is great! I knew about this technique of "escape" planting but have not tried yet. I think I definitely will now!


Incidentally I am now trying one of Ebihara's techniques of moving a mature, developed branch from its original place to another area within the same tree in order to improve its design. So far so good. I plan on posting this in 2015.

Yes this is interesting , I always read people growing sacrifices to get the desired trunk then chopping selecting branches and then building from there , I have always thought to do it this way and wondered why no one says this , this technique makes a lot of sense, Time time time

 

[RobertB]

I think I learned more in 2 hours of standing in the yard of Mr. Ebihara outside of Tokyo about growing maples than I had learned in 5 years leading up to it. Mr. Ebihara has passed now but his trees are still around Japan. You can see some references to him on Bonsai Tonight, there are three articles if you search "Ebihara".

I made an "instruction" sheet for a workshop I did recently. I'm attaching it here. The basic technique is to take a young maple that is a couple feet tall, wire the trunk into the final shape and then grow out the finished branches and sacrifice branches all at the same time. The sacrifice branches should be carefully selected and let run while the finish branches are more carefully crafted. No trunk chops! Figure 4 is the trunk that you're after, but is not intended to indicate that you remove all the branches.

Ebihara grew things in the ground with a "container" above it for the nebari. I think he developed so many techniques that I couldn't even list them all. Obviously my instruction sheet is only a beginning. The specific root techniques used on pines were used by him (air pruning) as well as partial removal of sacrifice branches (see bonsai tonight), moving of finished branches from one place to another with grafting techniques etc.

I really like this plan and plan on trying it on a group of seedlings next yr. I just wonder how you heal the wounds from the sacrifice branches or do you cut and replace them from time to time, not letting the sacrifice thicken greater than 1 inch.

I also here that growing sacrifices like this is very slow since most trees are apically dominant. I have no experience with but based on some of my research it can take a few yrs for the sacrifices to gain the vigor to grow like this.

I am trying a version of this now with a 3 yr seedling that has been chopped but has two sacrifices below the chop, that were new shoots this spring that are very vigorous and are currently just trailing the new leader.

 

[Solaris]

I really like this plan and plan on trying it on a group of seedlings next yr. I just wonder how you heal the wounds from the sacrifice branches or do you cut and replace them from time to time, not letting the sacrifice thicken greater than 1 inch.

I've read about using a technique wherein you cut off the branch in sections, rather than all at once, to reduce the scar. Apparently, you cut out part of it (diameter-wise, not length-wise) and let the remaining part of the branch contribute to healing the bark for a season, then cut a bit more the next year. Useful for slow healers and trees with smooth bark.

I also here that growing sacrifices like this is very slow since most trees are apically dominant. I have no experience with but based on some of my research it can take a few yrs for the sacrifices to gain the vigor to grow like this.

Are you guiding the sacrifice to be higher than the tree's apex?

 

[RobertB]

I've read about using a technique wherein you cut off the branch in sections, rather than all at once, to reduce the scar. Apparently, you cut out part of it (diameter-wise, not length-wise) and let the remaining part of the branch contribute to healing the bark for a season, then cut a bit more the next year. Useful for slow healers and trees with smooth bark.



Are you guiding the sacrifice to be higher than the tree's apex?

It seems like guiding up a new sacrifice to be higher than the apex on a replacement sacrifice can be slow. but yes. trying.