A. palmatum 'shishigashira'

[River's Edge]

thanks guys! i had also only ever been taught the method @River's Edge explained, but like @Saddler also always wondered about what @0soyoung explained!

definitely going to try a thread graft without cambium-to-cambium contact! Thanks Oso!

Also when you mentioned “girdle” i realized that i can’t use the same cutting for a simultaneous thread graft and root graft, because once the thread graft is girdled by the trunk, energy won’t be travelling back down to its roots anymore! This is why people (e.g. sergio) uses approach grafts when root grafting!

thank youuuuu

You could if you left buds/foliage below the thread graft so it was still viable after severing the thread graft.

 

[Fishtank307]

Once established they are very vigorous in growth habit. Easy to threadgraft as long as you wire the whips during the early summer for the following early spring grafting. Be careful with the branches they break easily and should only be wired when very supple and young. ( new growth) . Here is a project underway with a similar trunk base! It started with an eight foot nursery sale tree! I reduced it on site in order to transport in the car! The sales person at the nursery was not very impressed when i cut off five feet to get it in the car easily!

Thanks for the advice! I was contemplating the same thing when I jammed this tree in my small car... Luckily, only one twig broke off
When I have taken all my layers, I'd definitely want to do some grafting on the original trunk, if I'm not lucky with buds popping. One side of the trunk is bare, so I'll need some branches there! And depending on the roots, maybe some root grafts as well. I was thinking about using the ebihara technique for this one. Seems like a good candidate.

 

[Fishtank307]

I was thinking... Would it be best if I take smaller layers on each branch over the course of a couple of years? Or layer the thick branches closer to the base of the tree, so that I have 5 large trees?

 

[Paulpash]

I was thinking... Would it be best if I take smaller layers on each branch over the course of a couple of years? Or layer the thick branches closer to the base of the tree, so that I have 5 large trees?

I'd be more inclined to air layer everything off you don't want in one go. This will reduce time wasted for you to start developing your bonsai - plus you can always air layer the bigger bits again at leisure. Air layers are basically chops - underneath the layers you'll see lots of shoots popping. You can use these to start branch building.

I've cut off a shisi air layer and it didn't leave any noticeable die back when removed. Maybe @River's Edge can confirm similar?

 

[Fishtank307]

I'd be more inclined to air layer everything off you don't want in one go. This will reduce time wasted for you to start developing your bonsai - plus you can always air layer the bigger bits again at leisure. Air layers are basically chops - underneath the layers you'll see lots of shoots popping. You can use these to start branch building.

I've cut off a shisi air layer and it didn't leave any noticeable die back when removed. Maybe @River's Edge can confirm similar?

True! Also, I'm worried the thick branches will create some inverse taper if I leave them on too long.

Peter Chan seems to do it the same way. His layers look about the same thickness as the ones I'm planning to take.

 

[Paulpash]

True! Also, I'm worried the thick branches will create some inverse taper if I leave them on too long.

Peter Chan seems to do it the same way. His layers look about the same thickness as the ones I'm planning to take.

The decision is easy then. You can't sacrifice your main tree for the sake of the lesser ones. Good luck

 

[cmeg1]

Ive airlayered shishi nursery stock and goes very well.In Chans book he sais they are often airlayered.
Once on own roots they are slower growing.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

I was thinking... Would it be best if I take smaller layers on each branch over the course of a couple of years? Or layer the thick branches closer to the base of the tree, so that I have 5 large trees?

to answer your question, shishigashira (and koto hime) produce mostly straight—and as others have mentioned, brittle—branches like yours has done. if you do air layer thicker branches, i would use these two attached photos as inspiration. They are trunks with little movement, and elegant branch work. It is not worth ‘wasting’ a thick branch by air layering something that you can’t already reasonably visualize as an excellent bonsai.

I know 2 people who—when it comes to cultivars like shishigashira or koto hime—wire young shoots in their tall and vigorous parent plants, and then air layer them off. your shishigashira will produce shoots over 15cm long next spring. You can wire a few when they are young, and let them remain on the parent plant until they have gained a satisfying thickness, then air layer. You can also prune them, select buds, and continue to let them grow before air layering. (doing this delays your progress on the nebari)

i am not attracted to that idea myself, but thought i would share what i was taught. i have a perference for multi-trunk specimens when it comes to cultivars like this one. for that reason, when i chose to purchase and air layer a shishigashira, i was deliberately looking for “clumps”:

My Maples in Montreal

Realize, @derek7745 that this tree would fetch between $700-$1000 at any bonsai nursery in my area. The level of "development" is key here. They don't ramify/develop branching all that rapidly. But that's not what you would be paying for. It's really about the bark character/ trunk character...

www.bonsainut.com

this could be another option for air layering

it could also be fun to air layer many smaller branches and create a forest. Bill Valavanis has a number of koto hime forests in his garden that are spectacular, including one that he recently brought to the shohin show

this could be another option for air layering

a tree the size of yours is likely to yield all of these types of candidates: young shoots to wire, thin branches to layer, thick branches to layer, clumps to layer, etc. Do a few of each?

edit: don’t forget to start a few cascades too! never seen a shishi cascade before (probably because of their upward habit and brittle branches), but with a parent plant like yours, i’d give it a try why not?

 

[Fishtank307]

So I managed to take 5 airlayers:

I really hope they take! Going to spray/water them with Rhizotonic to aid them with rooting.

If all these layers take, I'll have the basic structure for the 'motherplant' set. (Albeit with some very thick branches here and there)

I also noticed flower buds:

 

[Driftwood]

Once established they are very vigorous in growth habit. Easy to threadgraft as long as you wire the whips during the early summer for the following early spring grafting. Be careful with the branches they break easily and should only be wired when very supple and young. ( new growth) . Here is a project underway with a similar trunk base! It started with an eight foot nursery sale tree! I reduced it on site in order to transport in the car! The sales person at the nursery was not very impressed when i cut off five feet to get it in the car easily!

Hi, Today I found out the hard way how easy it break while wiring my new apex/ future trunk line even on new grow!! Luckily it just splited, how well does shishi heal?

 

[River's Edge]

Hi, Today I found out the hard way how easy it break while wiring my new apex/ future trunk line even on new grow!! Luckily it just splited, how well does shishi heal?

Generally I just prune it off. If it does heal the joint is very weak and prone to split later just when you have begun to rely on it for design. With this cultivar they grow so fast I tend to just restart from that point.
Hint on the air layers! if you wrap the pot in plastic and cover the top, it really reduces the moisture loss, essentially the mother plant provides the moisture through the vascular system. Lessens the chance of failure due to drying the air layer portion out. You can always add some every week or so with a hypodermic through the plastic.
You have left substantial portions to feed the new roots on each air layer which is good, however a lot to support when separated! Consider some partial defoliation or pruning to reduce load on the new roots right after separation. Will improve your chances. If you prune seal the cuts.
Just some thoughts!

 

[River's Edge]

Hi, Today I found out the hard way how easy it break while wiring my new apex/ future trunk line even on new grow!! Luckily it just splited, how well does shishi heal?

Wiring tip for brittle species is to wrap wire a bit looser, not so close to cambium on each turn. When bending use the wire from the end to move slowly the overall, not at a particular point. That way it is more gradual with the more flexible portion able to take more movement. hope that wording makes sense! Should wire before any lignification sets in. ie: turns brown. One this species I tend to leave a longer wire in place and bend three inches of newest growth at a time. The end of the wire is useful in bending and I do not have to join wires to continue wiring.

 

[cmeg1]

How these going....did you try cuttings?
Do these cut at all @Fishtank307
@River's Edge

 

[Fishtank307]

How these going....did you try cuttings?
Do these cut at all @Fishtank307
@River's Edge

Haven't tried cuttings yet.. The shoots are a bit too short, probably because of the air layers..

 

[Fishtank307]

2 of the 5 layers died. I moved to an apartment this year and it's super windy on my balcony! We've had some very dry winds in april and my acers suffered a lot! So 3 layers left. One lost almost all its leaves, also due to dry weather, but somehow it managed to push roots just now:

Lots of scorched leafs


One root:


The second one is growing strong and has good root growth:



The full tree:


The layer on the far left hasn't pushed any roots yet. If it doesn't take this year, I'll just leave it till next spring. I'm happy I've got two air layers that took! Also, the tree has pushed new growth beneath the air-layers, so I'll have enough to work with for the 'mother plant'.

 

[Pitoon]

Shishigashira are notorious for cutting failure. That's why you see them either grafted or air layered to reproduce them.

 

[Fishtank307]

I repotted the 'mother plant' today. Lots of clay, poor draining soil... Resulting in a big (rotten) wound at the base. Other than that, I was pleased to see so many feeder roots close to the surface. I washed of most of the clay (sadly no picture of the result before I potted it!). I didn't really prune the roots after I sawed of half of the soil.

 

[Fishtank307]

Only one airlayering survived last year. I seperated it in october, when the leaves were just getting their autumn colours:

 

[cheesehead1958]

Nothing like jumping on a thread 4 years late. I bought a Shishi last year from a reputable nursery out of the 'bargain' area. I was a pretty active bonsai enthusiast 30 years ago but stopped completely. I was actually shopping for landscape plants for my recently completed ornamental pond but couldn't resist this 'opportunity'. The big trunk and funky leaves got me. So now it's winter and I'm thinking, ok, before bud break in March I should do something. Choices are to airlayer the entire trunk above the graft, or live with the graft and chop all the major branches reducing the top by 80-90% and train from there. The graft doesn't bother me a lot. Trained tree could end up just being a potted patio tree with nice form. I would be nice to know how the progress is on the tree at the top that Fishtank307 was working on. Suggestions? (pond picture included just because...). Thank you all.
Kirk

 

[cheesehead1958]

View attachment 356568

Only one airlayering survived last year. I seperated it in october, when the leaves were just getting their autumn colours:
View attachment 356569

Question - what time of year did you do your major branch cuts? Did you seal the wounds? Did they leak a lot? Thanks, Kirk See my other comments on the thread