A question I've never seen asked before

[mat]

As many as you can until the number exceeds your ability or desire to work on them.

some excellent replies already. I like Vance's - simple, to the point, flexible enough for you to apply to your own personal variables, whatever they may be.

I would only add that your collection will be tested during the times that you're not totally into it, more so than the times when you're gung ho. Vacations, family/friend commitments, general busyness, etc happen to us all. And all of the above will probably drag on the personal time that you can give each tree more than the size of your yard.

 

[Jason]

Brian miscalculated. The correct answer is exactly 13.

 

[Vance Wood]

some excellent replies already. I like Vance's - simple, to the point, flexible enough for you to apply to your own personal variables, whatever they may be.

I would only add that your collection will be tested during the times that you're not totally into it, more so than the times when you're gung ho. Vacations, family/friend commitments, general busyness, etc happen to us all. And all of the above will probably drag on the personal time that you can give each tree more than the size of your yard.

Matt does bring up a good point. When you first start out, unless you buy finished trees that cost bushels of money, you will mostly be using nursery stock that does not cost too much. You may or may not find it practical to lose some of these trees because you had to go away for a week or two and they suffered from lack of care.

Eventually you will have to make arrangements for their care during these times which means a trusted and careful friend or an automatic watering system; both require you do something you probably did not consider when you first ventured down this path. If you only have a few trees it is possible you could farm them out to someone who can take care of them for you as opposed to having someone come to your location to do it.

 

[Alex DeRuiter]

Whoa! Three days and three pages later...lol

But really, I appreciate everyone's input. In retrospect (especially after reading through everyone's insight), I think that there are indeed too many variables to give an answer; and even then the answer would be very general. I think Vance put it best: "As many as you can until the number exceeds your ability or desire to work on them." I suppose expecting a numerical value as the answer is silly, but Vance definitely put it into perspective with his post.

In regards to growing your own stock, the way I've been approaching it is -- after studying about bonsai and about select species you wish to work with -- acquire as many trees as you can (both financially and time-wise) to get some growing and caring experience; keep the trees you think have potential or ones you with to continue studying; weed out the rest. This is what I've been doing over the past three years and have eliminated many trees from my collection. I feel like I could handle more than I currently have, but in order to pay close attention to the ones I have, I think I'll stick at this number for at least a couple years. Of course this is what I say now, and don't be surprised if I post another thirty trees in the next month.

The correct answer is 17. Nine good ones, five crappy ones, and a few nursery stock.

The correct answer is 42

If you had your choice on the board to be know as someone.

Which would you rather be known for?

Quality or Quanity?

I hope "quality" would be everyone's answer

you must be majoring in Math... just joking!!! Not to be mean or sound rude I think your over thinking this... way to many variables, like do you plan on taking a lunch, and do you work on sunday, or holidays, etc. Buy / \ collect as many plants as you want to. Just don't spend to much money at first, so if your plants die, it won't be the end of the world... Good luck!

Lol, no way you'd catch me majoring in math -- hence my very scatter-brained attempt at an equation. ;-p

You have a very valid point here -- don't spend too much on your first trees as there's a chance they might die or suffer. I learned this after killing a Satsuki azalea this winter...but ah well, it was a great lesson learned

Stacy's got some good points: don't over-spend to start with, because dead trees are part of the tuition when you learn bonsai; do buy enough to keep you engaged and learning.

Try to figure out as early as you can just what part of bonsai appeals to you the most. I don't see that mentioned very often.

For me, the creation part is definitely what has the most fascination. Once I realized that, I understood why, every time I bought a finished tree, I quickly lost interest in it! I now buy only raw stock.

Harry Greer, on the other hand, likes to own bonsai, admire them, maintain them; but he prefers to hire a professional to do the in-depth work, partly because he knows it's not his gift, and partly because he has the money to do so. (Don't knock him. Nothing wrong with having money if you're responsible with it, and I think Harry is.) So ask yourself what aspect of bonsai you still want to be doing when you're 89!

One other comment from personal experience -- OK, two.

First, "how many is the right number" does depend on many things: your own approach to routine, whether you like structure better than flexibility or vice-versa, other hobbies and interests, your physical energy, the money you have available. I'm half-serious when I say I doubt that Stephen Hawking could reduce it all to an equation! You'll have to explore what works for you.

Second, if you're like me you'll find out quickly that a wife needs and expects more of your time than you anticipated. Her needs and wishes are valid, tho, as yours are to her. Be ready to work out a boundary that you're both comfortable with. If she loves you she'll be reasonable.

Steve, you are absolutely right! I haven't seen many people say what aspect of bonsai they wish to pursue either. Personally I like the idea of growing my own trees, but the idea of collecting and caring for collected trees is also quite appealing. I think I'll focus primarily on growing, but collection will definitely be something I'll get into at one point. But yes, buying finished trees just sounds too effortless to me -- I bought one slightly-finished tree and lost interest just as you did.

And in regards to your last note, you couldn't be righter. lol -- I'm glad that I got into bonsai around the same time I met my soon-to-be fiancé. This have given me a very good idea of just how much time I can usually plan to delegate both. haha -- thank you for your input

It would also depend on the age of the trees and at what stage they're in, no? If you're still developing the trunk I don't think you need to spend much time each week, or each month for that matter, watching over your trees. If you're in a bonsai pot and you're at the ramifying stage I'd say you need to be more attentive and that's where space and number of trees might play a factor. Trees are dynamic, as are people, striking a balance in your routines I believe is part of the process. You can over do it in a small space, some might say you're not doing enough, doesn't matter. As long as you're getting something out of each plant you have enough.

That's actually something that didn't even cross my mind -- very good point. Luckily I have nothing that's in an advanced stage, so I have some time to prepare for it.

Which would your wife rather have you do: Doing bonsai or---going to bars, chasing girls, sitting in front of the TV watching foot ball or drinking beer? The best thing to do is get her involved.

Vance, I've been steady trying to get her involved more. She still seems disinterested at times, but I think I'm getting to her

buy some boots and a good shovel. collect as many trees as your yard will allow. don't buy finished trees until your too old to DIY. try everything: seeds, layering, grafting, etc. once you're an experienced gardener (20 yrs or so) then ask yourself the same question.

Very sound advice. I feel the same way about buying finished trees. After buying one semi-finished tree and comparing it to what I've produced by doing layers or buying stock, I would definitely prefer growing my own material. However, as rockm pointed out, finished trees are never finished. I've seen threads on here where trees that looked finished were chopped and made into something entirely different. Beyond that, refinement is a continuous process in growing bonsai.

"buy some boots and a good shovel. collect as many trees as your yard will allow. don't buy finished trees until your too old to DIY. try everything: seeds, layering, grafting, etc. once you're an experienced gardener (20 yrs or so) then ask yourself the same question."

Bull, pure BULL. Buying boots and a good shovel will mean you may simply fill your backyard with mostly unworkable stumps for a decade and learn nothing about how to do bonsai beyond digging.

Sure try everything INCLUDING a finished tree. I can't believe the snobbery that sometimes masquerades as "do it yourself" thinking, as if somehow "everything good" in bonsai excludes a finished tree. I'm pushing 50 and have dug (and will continue to dig) more than a few trees in my time doing bonsai.

I have done all of the above over the last 20 years or so, including buying a "finished" tree or three (finished trees are NEVER finished).... Believe me, "finished" trees have taught me VASTLY more than ANY seed, air layer or graft--all of those are great, but you will not really learn much bonsai from them for quite awhile. Same with collected stock (IF you know how and what to collect -- if you don't know what to collect you will just have a piece of junk that took you five hours to dig up). Just because it's collected doesn't necessarily make it any better than any other tree. If you collect without an appreciation of "finished" bonsai, you will come back with unworkable crappola nine times out of ten. I've seen it happen over and over again.

I have a 20' by 20' townhouse backyard. I have two dozen or so trees, from seedling size to 250 year old collected trees. I've collected some myself, bought collected material from others, used nursery material, air layers, etc. Over the years, I've sold off most all of the airlayers, seedlings, and middling collected crap to concentrate on larger more exacting material. If you stick with bonsai long enough, you will most likely be doing the same at one time or another.

In the end, I truly recommend ALL of it, including not turning your nose up at "finished" trees.

Perhaps a bit brash, but truly well spoken. I found this response very enlightening and it kind of snapped me out of those "never buy finished trees" mindset. I suppose you really can learn a lot from a finished tree, and by owning one you can spend much more time examing it, whereas at a bonsai show you can only spend a very limited amount of time examing a tree.

 

[Alex DeRuiter]

Funny that this question came up as I was just discussing with a friend quantity/space/time issues with my collection.

I think as a beginner you tend to want to amass lots of different species. Because you might not be sure of your skills and comfortable with the price of buying better stock, you end up with a lot of small stuff that is either crap and/or will need to be grown out for 10 or more years. So, while you might end up learning general horticultural management, you will not learn how to do bonsai. Even if you are willing to grow things out, you realize how much time and skill it takes to get something worthwhile - especially as you come to understand that bonsai at that stage is less about growing something up into a bonsai and more about growing something out and cutting it back and starting all over again. I'm in the midst of getting rid of a lot of crap I bought in my early days, or secretly hoping that it dies off

I think having a mix of trees in different stages probably provides the best learning environment. I can tell you that I learned more about branch placement, wiring, perspective, etc. from working with stock that was worked on by professionals (not finished per se, but a lot of the basic groundwork was done) than from anything else in my collection. Digging up stumps for free is always nice, but you still should use discretion in what you are spending your time on (I know that I still sometimes struggle with this myself ). While collected material can be really great, most stumps that are dug have limited bonsai value, which is why I think you see a lot of stumps on eBay

In the end, bonsai is a hobby for the vast majority of us, and so we should have enough trees in our collection that (1) we have the time to adequately care of them; (2) we have material that we can learn from and enjoy working on; and (3) we don't have so much material that it becomes a chore to take care of the collection.

Not to compare responses, but I believe this may be my favorite response in this thread. I'm currently in that in-between stage where I'm realizing how much time it will take to grow things out, and am thus clearing out my collection of stuff I think will take too long or is generally just lousy bonsai material. I know I sound like a broken record by now, but thank you for posting this. I hope more beginners read this to give them a little insight in terms of reasonable bonsai material, and in terms of the amount of patience it will really take to create a good tree.

yikes !!!! Axxonn, you are going to be busy for a long time... between getting a wife, her worrying about you being at bars, or hooters, buying some boots and a shovel, and collecting as many trees as your yard will allow, becoming an experienced gardner, learn about digging, pushing 50, buying a "finished" tree or three, selling off most all of the airlayers, seedlings, and middling collected crap to concentrate on larger more exacting material, providing oneself with a comprehensive understanding of bonsai cultivation, learn general horticultural management, learn about branch placement, wiring, perspective, worrying about having your hunting grounds totally destroyed by progressives with bulldozers, finding superior material in all sorts of places, including drainage ditches near shopping malls, behind stores near dumpsters, in old homesite landscapes, refuse piles, abandoned cul desacs, worrying about how much time is spent deliberating how to attract investment before demolition occurs, and hearing about it for the next twenty years in the local press.... not to mention posting and reading replies in your favorite bonsai forum.... and with a 40 work-hours and 20 school-hours per week that you already do... when are going to find the time ????

I believe you should pretty much do it all.... Your life experiences with show in no matter what kinda art you do...

Tell me about it! I think I'm screwed...I might as well burn my trees down, grab a beer and go to a strip club. lol

some excellent replies already. I like Vance's - simple, to the point, flexible enough for you to apply to your own personal variables, whatever they may be.

I would only add that your collection will be tested during the times that you're not totally into it, more so than the times when you're gung ho. Vacations, family/friend commitments, general busyness, etc happen to us all. And all of the above will probably drag on the personal time that you can give each tree more than the size of your yard.

I think that this being added in at what appears to be the end of this thread is perfect timing. Like Vance said, things like seedlings and other trees that you don't necessarily care as much about can be left for a day or two (or left to die perhaps) without much thought; but trees that you have worked on for years, or trees you've spent a lot of money on, will require much more attention and commitment.

So, again, thank you everyone for your input. Given the somewhat silly topic, I think this has been an extremely informative post and I hope many beginners happen upon this. Thanks everyone

 

[treebeard55]

Axxon, two "PS's" if I may ...

If it's practical, I suggest taking her to several good-quality shows: seeing what can be done in bonsai will give her a deeper appreciation, I would think, especially if she likes art in any form. Even non-visual: proportion, balance, integrity, rhythm, and other elements are constants in any art form.

I'm not sure when the All-Michigan Show is held; may be already past for this year. The Mid-America Show in Chicago, every August, is great. To us it's well worth the three-hour drive each way and the cost of a hotel.

.... Believe me, "finished" trees have taught me VASTLY more than ANY seed, air layer or graft--all of those are great, but you will not really learn much bonsai from them for quite awhile. ...

Rock, interesting comment. You've got me thinking, because sooner or later all the trees I'm developing will be "finished."... And in case it needs to be said, I don't "turn up my nose" at buying finished trees. It just has not been a good idea for me in the past.

 

[rockm]

because sooner or later all the trees I'm developing will be "finished."...

Sooner or later, all "finished" trees become "unfinished." They don't remain in one place for long. Designs imposed years ago can change quickly--intentionally or unitentionally.

I have seen some folks stymied by the designs they have invested in a tree for years. They become unwilling to change it or see faults. Redeveloping or refining A "finished" tree that someone else worked on allows more freedom to explore possibilities. Such work can shake an owner loose from complacency in his "self-developed" trees...

 

[Vance Wood]

because sooner or later all the trees I'm developing will be "finished."...

Sooner or later, all "finished" trees become "unfinished." They don't remain in one place for long. Designs imposed years ago can change quickly--intentionally or intentionally.

I have seen some folks stymied by the designs they have invested in a tree for years. They become unwilling to change it or see faults. Redeveloping or refining A "finished" tree that someone else worked on allows more freedom to explore possibilities. Such work can shake an owner loose from complacency in his "self-developed" trees...

This is a good point: It does happen and all should be aware of it. I have, over the last several years, been involved in restyling almost the total of my collection, including those which have won awards.

 

[Islands Never Cry]

The correct answer is 42

I was going to make a Douglas Adams joke, but Axxon beat me to it.

 

[Alex DeRuiter]

Axxon, two "PS's" if I may ...

If it's practical, I suggest taking her to several good-quality shows: seeing what can be done in bonsai will give her a deeper appreciation, I would think, especially if she likes art in any form. Even non-visual: proportion, balance, integrity, rhythm, and other elements are constants in any art form.

I'm not sure when the All-Michigan Show is held; may be already past for this year. The Mid-America Show in Chicago, every August, is great. To us it's well worth the three-hour drive each way and the cost of a hotel.

That's what I've been thinking as well. The Michigan show was in May, and I got to attend, but she chose to opt out because our 1.5 year-old daughter can be a bit of a Tazmanian Devil, and she just stayed home with her. Nevertheless, I believe there's a Fall show, and I plan on taking her to some quality shows over the next few years to try to spark her interest.

The correct answer is 42

I was going to make a Douglas Adams joke, but Axxon beat me to it.

Haha, glad someone else noticed the reference