A Weird Taxus

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#21
@Smoke is right on this one. Hardening off means to acclimate a plant to being outside. I'm doing the very thing to a bunch of peppers and basil that just came from a greenhouse.

However, I do know the term is often used to describe lignification. I use it myself but realize it means something different with trees.
 

sorce

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#22
Do you still wish to look like a fool?
Smoke and Mirrors!

Semanticsnut.com

SemenAnticsNut.oralg

BlowHard.Gov

TwoFaced.net

Special you are .....to go on defining something that has
nothing to do with bonsai
When you know what he meant.

This...from someone who constantly whines about "Bonsai" and why don't we show them...blah blah.....lotta air .....

Here....where it snows and we have more than a 3 week dormancy period ....

Trimming shoots that are not lignified is a good way to start weakening a tree.

But of course....I don't believe(yes I do) that you are so simple minded....you are aware that your growing season is not the same as ours....

So you are giving poor advice.....

Or jealous that Even Winging it....
Just Wing It is better at this than you were at year 4. With winter.

What else could it be that makes you go back on your own word....
This was a waste of time....
And Not bonsai or serving bonsai.....

Fool.....that's a strong word.

Mirror.

Sorce
 

sorce

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#23
If that right trunk works.....I'd cut the main leader for 3pics. 2018-05-16-04-55-21.jpg

If the right can't "trunk"...I'd pull the other right a bit and use the big one.

Whatever....

I'd focus on small High canopies..
Let the straight be straight and make the top make good old sense.

Sorce
 

just.wing.it

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#24
Oh wait....your just winging it...sorry
That's wrong.
Hardening off is the formation or establishment of the cuticle.
The cuticle is the tough waxy covering that the a leaf forms causing it to become harder, sharper, and reduce transpiration.
Nothing to do with lignification.
Nothing to do with indoors.
 
Last edited:

just.wing.it

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#26
@Smoke is right on this one. Hardening off means to acclimate a plant to being outside. I'm doing the very thing to a bunch of peppers and basil that just came from a greenhouse.

However, I do know the term is often used to describe lignification. I use it myself but realize it means something different with trees.
Not true, watch Ryan describe it.
That may be another usage of the term but that's got nothing to do with it.
 

just.wing.it

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#27
Keep in mind that you can only type into google hardening off.

Don't send me some baffoon article written by some knoob with sticks in pots that knows shit about how to ramify a plant, of which I can show you numerous pictures of how I do it with out wasting all that stupid time waiting for the meristem to look "golden"

I can show you the pictures with my well ramified maples, which are hedged every other day, hardened off or not....bwahahahahah
You don't need to take shots at Walter here, unnecessary, and he's got nothing to do with it either.
 

just.wing.it

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#30
Don't send me some baffoon article written by some knoob with sticks in pots that knows shit about how to ramify a plant, of which I can show you numerous pictures of how I do it with out wasting all that stupid time waiting for the meristem to look "golden"
If you consider Ryan a baffoon noob with sticks in pots, well, that sounds like a personal problem.
 

just.wing.it

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#31
If you waited till candles on pines hardened off or lignified before candle pruning the reason for doing it would be lost.
And just for shit and grins, I don't agree with this either....
I guess you need to define "the reason"....and probably define the type of pine...

For example, on my EWP, pruning after the candles have lignified is not a useless operation at all...
It shortens the branch, limiting the available space for future buds to form.
Also, if I'm doing a pruning like that, I'm pruning back to younger, small branches, tightening up the tree's silhouette....
Certainly not losing the reason for doing it.

Sounds more like your opinion, which is always welcome, of course!
 

rockm

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#32
Here is what it means which has absolutely nothing to do with bonsai or the plants we work on....

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/03/30/harden-off-plant-gardening/
That's not really what I mean when I say those words. I mean waiting for new leaves to turn leathery hard and leaf stems to lignify (turn into woody tissue). haven't ever seen that term used the way it is in the Denver article in any bonsai-related literature...
 

just.wing.it

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#33
That's not really what I mean when I say those words. I mean waiting for new leaves to turn leathery hard and leaf stems to lignify (turn into woody tissue). haven't ever seen that term used the way it is in the Denver article in any bonsai-related literature...
Likewise!

Maybe it's a regional thing.
 

Smoke

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#34
You don't need to take shots at Walter here, unnecessary, and he's got nothing to do with it either.
I was hedging bonsai long before Walter talked about it. Walter is considered a rock star with credentials, does not make him the one and only. Same with Ryan, Ryan used to sit next to me at the Hanford Bonsai Society when he was a wet behind the ears college student at Cal Poly and bring his one gallon Home depot junipers to meetings and ask me what to do with them. I know Ryan pretty well....Just another over paid bonsai guy......

Your just another guy with no ambition to do anything on your own and hope like Hell someone here can tell you what to do. You would do well to forget the idolization of the Pseudo Bonsai Gods and just work your trees. Sounds like Sorce has all the answers. Look at his trees....is that what you wish to make yours look like?
 

Smoke

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#35
That's not really what I mean when I say those words. I mean waiting for new leaves to turn leathery hard and leaf stems to lignify (turn into woody tissue). haven't ever seen that term used the way it is in the Denver article in any bonsai-related literature...

Well maybe people are using the term wrong. The term harden off has meant the same thing longer than I been alive. The term "to lignify" like wise has meant the same thing for eons.

Waiting for a plant to "harden off" in the way Winger was talking, which by the way became personal in this thread, not me, has not really be defined by him. And....I'm still waiting to be dazzeled by his definition by the term harden off. Not an article by Ryan or the use of the term. An official document from a University extension or bonified Govt agency. ( there isn't one cause harden off means only one thing)

I'll just tell you this from someone that has lots of maples.... Lots and lots of maples. Waiting to prune any of my trees here where I live, and most of North america till the shoots "harden off" or "lignify" is waiting too long and will ruin the outline of the tree. the shoot will lose its vigor and rebudding takes too long and I can't get the ramification I desire to achieve my goals.

I say we start showing trees to compare which method works best....We can begin right here. Show me some maple trees with well ramified canopies right now. I took these in my underware on my BBQ last night.

DSC_00031.JPG DSC_00041.JPG DSC_00071.JPG
 

just.wing.it

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#36
Funny stuff Al...
I have no ambition to do anything on my own, I guess that's why I'm experimenting with so many "unsuitable for bonsai" trees...hmm...
I have no ambition to do anything on my own, I guess that's why I'm the only person I personally know who does Bonsai at all (minus one fellow Bnutter that I have met once)...

I don't worship any bonsai god's, you wanted my definition, I gave it to you, and I backed it up with a statement from Ryan.
And I don't care what a Govt organization says, F the govt.

So what if you knew Ryan when he was young....you're old....and I had chicken for dinner last night.... should I say something else that doesn't matter???

You don't know me Al, but anyone who does will tell you, undoubtedly, that I'm a natural individualist, I'm the guy walking away from the crowd, making my own path, with my own means.

You also won't change my mind on the hardening thing.
Hardening happens before lignification on Taxus.
 
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#37
I'm not sure why it's controversial that "to harden off" has two different definitions. I also learned the "gardening" version with the active shuffling of tender plants first.

But, the passive "bonsai" version where it's the tree that does the hardening off also makes sense, especially since "lignify" is an annoying word to say.

Language is malleable.

Anyways, in an attempt to steer this thread back on track: is it possible that the pre-lignification trimming makes more sense for trees in refinement, than for the taxus in question which has more development to do and whose owner wants to keep as healthy as possible? Is it also possible that your maples are a species that can be pushed harder than a yew?

Ryan Neil's "energy positive/negative" take on waiting for lignification struck me as a little "woo" based at first, but it does jive with what little actual botany I've learned in the last year. Maybe people are costing themselves time by waiting, but it seems like a decent strategy to maintain the health of the tree. (except for cases like here, where not trimming early could lead to loss of interior growth)
 

rockm

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#39
Well maybe people are using the term wrong. The term harden off has meant the same thing longer than I been alive. The term "to lignify" like wise has meant the same thing for eons.

Waiting for a plant to "harden off" in the way Winger was talking, which by the way became personal in this thread, not me, has not really be defined by him. And....I'm still waiting to be dazzeled by his definition by the term harden off. Not an article by Ryan or the use of the term. An official document from a University extension or bonified Govt agency. ( there isn't one cause harden off means only one thing)

I'll just tell you this from someone that has lots of maples.... Lots and lots of maples. Waiting to prune any of my trees here where I live, and most of North america till the shoots "harden off" or "lignify" is waiting too long and will ruin the outline of the tree. the shoot will lose its vigor and rebudding takes too long and I can't get the ramification I desire to achieve my goals.

I say we start showing trees to compare which method works best....We can begin right here. Show me some maple trees with well ramified canopies right now. I took these in my underware on my BBQ last night.

View attachment 192259 View attachment 192260 View attachment 192261
Ok, you're right. Have no intention of getting into a pissing match with you over who's trident is better ramified thanks...
 

Smoke

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#40
Ok, you're right. Have no intention of getting into a pissing match with you over who's trident is better ramified thanks...
I get it. I’m not embarresed to say the there was a time I didn’t wish to get into a pissing match about well ramified maples either.