About yamadori. And other Japanese terms tossed around here

M. Frary

Bonsai Godzilla
Messages
14,305
Reaction score
22,054
Location
Mio Michigan
USDA Zone
4
I know that when someone digs a stump they like to think they have a yamadori.
To me a yamadori is a tree collected from the wild,growing in harsh conditions,stunted by nature. Be it wind,snow and ice,wind or beat up by an Ibex.
It will mainly be found on a mountainside or in my area a swamp.
Not in your yard. Not in a neighbor's yard.
I've collected a lot of trees but I only consider a spruce I dug up 3 years ago as yamadori.
It didn't need cut down and regrow. It only needed to recover from collection and styled.
I call everything I've ever dug up collected stumps.
I also say surface roots not nebari. I'm not Japanese.
About the only Japanese word I use in bonsai is bonsai.
Mallsai? Potentsai ? Yardadori? Bastardization of Japanese.
Jin ? Dead stub.
Shari? Peeled or wounded bark.
I know some embrace the whole Japanese thing but let's use the words correctly.
A yamadori isn't something you can reach with a power cord from your house. 20170428_161042.jpg
Yamadori spruce.20170924_095048.jpg
Collected stump.
 

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
11,956
Reaction score
17,046
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7
I don't split hairs. Yamadori is slang for "collected" in the west. Who cares if it's "bastardized" Japanese. The Japanese adopt English terms as slang ALL THE TIME without feeling much guilt or need to be precise.

Yeah, there's a difference in a stump and a natural bonsai, but the "yamadori" you're talking about are pretty rare. It's is also a sliding scale. For instance the "yamadori" you've pictured is what I'd call collected sapling...
http://www.engrish.com/most-popular/
 

M. Frary

Bonsai Godzilla
Messages
14,305
Reaction score
22,054
Location
Mio Michigan
USDA Zone
4
I don't split hairs. Yamadori is slang for "collected" in the west. Who cares if it's "bastardized" Japanese. The Japanese adopt English terms as slang ALL THE TIME without feeling much guilt or need to be precise.

Yeah, there's a difference in a stump and a natural bonsai, but the "yamadori" you're talking about are pretty rare. It's is also a sliding scale. For instance the "yamadori" you've pictured is what I'd call collected sapling...
Dropped a hammer on my spruce you bastard!
It is only 2 feet tall but has the bark and torn up appearance of yamadori.
The closest I'll ever come to a real one.
And also it didnt need regrown.
Next year it gets a style and done.
Do yamadori need to be large?
Also I do refer to it as collected and only lately began thinking of it as maybe being yamadori.
Maybe there is no such thing. At least I put up pictures of what I thought of as my one and only yamadori.
All I know is it's cool and needs very little work.

Do you have a tree that falls into your vision of what a yamadori is that you've collected?
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,209
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
I think “yamadori” means something like “from the mountain”.

Nebari isn’t really “surface roots”. It’s that area where the trunk transitions to roots.

But, whatever. The goal with words is to be able to communicate. With bonsai, using the Japanese words should help all of us “speak the same language” when discussing trees. It’s not an attempt to impress, or become Japanese, it’s just the most commonly used terms that everybody can use.
 

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
11,956
Reaction score
17,046
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7
Dropped a hammer on my spruce you bastard!
It is only 2 feet tall but has the bark and torn up appearance of yamadori.
The closest I'll ever come to a real one.
And also it didnt need regrown.
Next year it gets a style and done.
Do yamadori need to be large?
Also I do refer to it as collected and only lately began thinking of it as maybe being yamadori.
Maybe there is no such thing. At least I put up pictures of what I thought of as my one and only yamadori.
All I know is it's cool and needs very little work.

Do you have a tree that falls into your vision of what a yamadori is that you've collected?
This is the closest I have to a true "natural bonsai" Still needs alotof work. I didn't collect it thoughgreyoak1.jpg
 

M. Frary

Bonsai Godzilla
Messages
14,305
Reaction score
22,054
Location
Mio Michigan
USDA Zone
4
This is the closest I have to a true "natural bonsai" Still needs alotof work. I didn't collect it thoughView attachment 167342
Pretty cool!
Maybe more people will show their near yamadori.
You do collect trees if memory serves.
Being in Virginia there should be some cliffs you could collect trees from. Or am I wrong? I've only been to West Virginia but it was a pretty steep place.
We have nothing like that here.
 

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
Messages
11,956
Reaction score
17,046
Location
Fairfax Va.
USDA Zone
7
Pretty cool!
Maybe more people will show their near yamadori.
You do collect trees if memory serves.
Being in Virginia there should be some cliffs you could collect trees from. Or am I wrong? I've only been to West Virginia but it was a pretty steep place.
We have nothing like that here.
The best collecting sites in the Blue Ridge and Appalachians are federal parks and protected. I know where some spectacular trees are having mostly grown up in those mountains.

Some substantial altitude in some places, but can't get permits to dig trees now however.

The most fruitful sources of old quality yamadori here in No. Va, are old home sites/plantations. There are more than a dozen of 200 year and older houses within a mile or so of my house. Some aren't owned by the state or federal governments and if you know who to talk to you can get permission to dig stuff. Collected more than a few big old wisteria and boxwood that way. There are also extremely fine old landscape trees in 1940s tract houses and 1920s bungalows if you look.
 

Maros

Shohin
Messages
429
Reaction score
2,338
Location
Slovakia
I used to time time with my neighbor who is nativ english speaker. We use to run next to the river on the embankment.
When we are discussing our running schedule and route for next run he tend to use slovak word for embankment which is "hrádza" (which actually could look written horrible but sounds ok). When I asked him why he use this slovak word in his english speech his answer was that it is shorter and easier.
Now, if I compare "tree collected from wild" with yamadori, I chose to use yamadori. It is shorter and says exactly what it is. Makes sense?
Nebari and couple of other terms (Mochikomi, ...) for me fall into same bracket.
 

coh

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,731
Reaction score
6,685
Location
Rochester, NY
USDA Zone
6
Come on Mike, terms like "mallsai" and "yardadori" or "urbanadori" are fun, and I think most bonsai practitioners know what they mean :)

Terms like jin, shari, nebari are convenient as Maros notes.

I have an issue with the various Japanese terms for tree styles. For some reason I can never keep them straight. Someone says "Chokkan" or "Han-Kengai" to me and I'm like, what...seems that "formal upright" or "semi-cascade" work just as well. But maybe that's just me...I guess I could learn them if it was important enough to me.
 

Bonsai Nut

Nuttier than your average Nut
Messages
11,309
Reaction score
23,509
Location
Charlotte area, North Carolina
USDA Zone
8a
There are also extremely fine old landscape trees in 1940s tract houses and 1920s bungalows if you look.

You should see some of the Hollywood junipers planted in the 1940's and 1950's in Anaheim... right next to Disneyland :) In case people wondered whether Chinese junipers can get large, look at the trunk on this monster:

screenshot-www.google.com-2017-11-16-12-21-02.jpg
 
Last edited:

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,290
Reaction score
8,334
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/yamadori.17806/

And here we go around the mulberry bush ....................

Yamadori ============ English ==== collected from the wild, very ancient tree.

Or look up Proto-European / Sanskrit

Wonder what the word was in ancient Chinese ?
Mai Eyt Es Ole:):eek:

Oh the word for black pills of skin dirt in Trinidadian is Muck
To cleanse of such you take a muck bath.
Simply wet and rub hand vigorously.
Whilst in shower.

Have fun debating.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Rambles

Mame
Messages
225
Reaction score
299
Location
Eugene, OR
USDA Zone
8a
If there is a word in another language that is 1) easy to type, remember, and say and that 2)nails down a concept in one word instead of a paragraph, I am likely going to adopt that term with peers who know what the term means. Grok, nebari, putz, tosca, fernway, schlemiel, yamadori, schadenfreude, etc. It borders on technical lingo at that point.

In networking, I'm not going to tell an associate "send a 56 byte test packet to the remote system." I'm going to say "ping it."

You have to remember that languages don't evolve. They mug each other in the ally behind the bar.

Trivia: per several linguistics proffesors I've met, the colloquial American "cheesey" (as in a cheesey sitcom) is difficult to translate out into many languages due to the inherent cultural trappings that require you to explains how something can be likable and nostalgic while at the same time being vaguely obnoxious, low quality, or campy.
 

Vin

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,251
Reaction score
7,601
Location
Panama City, FL Zone 9a/8b Centr
USDA Zone
8b
If there is a word in another language that is 1) easy to type, remember, and say and that 2)nails down a concept in one word instead of a paragraph, I am likely going to adopt that term with peers who know what the term means. Grok, nebari, putz, tosca, fernway, schlemiel, yamadori, schadenfreude, etc. It borders on technical lingo at that point.

In networking, I'm not going to tell an associate "send a 56 byte test packet to the remote system." I'm going to say "ping it."

You have to remember that languages don't evolve. They mug each other in the ally behind the bar.

Trivia: per several linguistics proffesors I've met, the colloquial American "cheesey" (as in a cheesey sitcom) is difficult to translate out into many languages due to the inherent cultural trappings that require you to explains how something can be likable and nostalgic while at the same time being vaguely obnoxious, low quality, or campy.
Say what? :rolleyes:
 

Joe Dupre'

Omono
Messages
1,293
Reaction score
2,583
Location
South Louisiana
USDA Zone
9a
Words don't have strict definitions......they have uses. A dictionary defines how a word is commonly used, not an absolute definition. My feeling is if enough people use a word to convey a certain meaning, then it's perfectly acceptable. In my lifetime, the words "queer" and "gay" have taken on completely different meanings.

So, if we call a collected tree yamadori, then it's a yamadori. It may be different in Japan.
 

Arcto

Chumono
Messages
863
Reaction score
1,432
Location
PNW
Oh boy! I get to muddy the waters here! A Mt Hemlock. Roadside collection as required in my permit. On a mountain, in National Forest. Pulled my vehicle over, dug, potted and in the car in less than 10 min. Not the most romantic collection. Also mowed down a few years ago. True Yamadori?IMG_1048.JPG A Lodgepole on a mountain, National Forest, remote area. I had to hike in, find it, dig it, then carry the damn thing out. Kinda earned this one. But the original tree was sawed off years ago. Over time a bottom branch became the new tree. True Yamadori? IMG_1049.JPG A Manzanita, in the mountains, National Forest, on an abandoned FS road. The nice deadwood created by vehicles driving over it repeatedly a while back. True Yamadori? IMG_1050.JPG
 

Arcto

Chumono
Messages
863
Reaction score
1,432
Location
PNW
Even in wild areas, the unintentional hand of man can create some interesting material. An ethical question. If I styled these and entered them in a prestigious show with the goal of winning prizes and acclaim. Or I put them up for sale at prices comparable to true Yamadori people have hiked to and collected from rock pockets. Could I call these true wild Yamadori?
 
Top Bottom