Acer Palmatum material find

BeebsBonsai

Shohin
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@defra I don't know why he wants to air layer. I don't really see inverse taper. Not a bad case anyway. A simple twist of the front should fix it. Unless he is trying to make three trees out of 1 or something like that. In that case, I would recommend he just uses a cutting from the chop. Maples grow insanely fast, and he could literally start from scratch. Sure, 10-15 years before he has a finished product, but he has complete control over it.

BTW, I have a trident I am beginning this process with next year and I cannot wait. Going to be exciting. I did get the timing of the chop right, didn't I? I meant to say if my timing is off on the chop, someone please correct me.
 

cole morton

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So lets break this down into steps you want to take and why you may or may not want to perform those tasks right away or in conjunction with each other:

Operation 1: Repotting

Operation 2: Trunk Chop.

Operation 3: Build taper, over time.

Best possible sequence of events for these would be the following:

Opearation 1, Operation 2, Operation 3. Your roots need to be growing healthy with room to extend before performing a trunk chop. I am sure there are people that have success at doing both at once, or in close succession, but I also think that's with full attention paid during aftercare and a vigorous and healthy-growing tree to start with. You don't really know what kind of care the tree had before you got it, and if it is as severely root-bound as it is, my guess is that you need to build a bit of vigor before the trunk chop. Here is what I would recommend:

Operation 1: Repotting- Do this next Spring. As soon as you see the buds swell, repot the tree. Maples are pretty hardy and can have a good amount of their roots removed. This helps both points 1 and 3. Successful repots of Maples really give you the best opportunity to build good, strong nebari. Be sure to plant in a pot that is shallower than you would typically use, but also wider than you would typically use. A nice, shallow, oval is a typical choice. Keeping the tree in a shallower pot forces those roots to spread out, which, in turn, increases the width and strength of the nebari.

Operation 2: Trunk Chop- Do this in Spring of 2019. Again, time the chop for bud swell, and all of the strength that was being directed to all the buds will go into those that you are starting the next step of the trunk and first branch with. In 2018, be sure you fertilize enough to pump as much vigor into the tree as possible. This will prepare the tree for the trunk chop in 2019 and set it up to explode with growth from the buds you cut to.

Operation 3: Building taper over time- Taper is always the struggle right? Not with maples you are trunk chopping. Each time you do a new chop, you build another step of taper. Think of the tree you chop in 2019 as the starter. then after letting it grow out the entire year, reduce to two shoots, training one as the new trunk step, and one as the next branch. Grow that out for a year or two, depending on how much of a difference in taper you want, and do the same thing again, adding one new trunk step and branch each time. And before you know it, you have a pretty damn good looking maple. Over the course of 5-10 years, but thats nothing in bonsai. Most important part is letting them grow out like crazy after each operation, while keeping the already developed portions heading toward the refinement phase. I always suggest Peter Adams book on Bonsai with Japanese Maples. It's simple to understand, great illustrations, and examples of his trees. You get to look into the brain of someone thinking about maple design. Some of the horticulture stuff is a bit out-dated, but if you read for purely design understanding and how to build design over time, there is a wealth of information.
Great advice I will follow this closely. However I would like to get some air layers off this tree prior to trunk chopping, so would I be able to repot and air layer in this spring? Or would that be too much stress. Thanks for your insight!
 

cole morton

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@defra I don't know why he wants to air layer. I don't really see inverse taper. Not a bad case anyway. A simple twist of the front should fix it. Unless he is trying to make three trees out of 1 or something like that. In that case, I would recommend he just uses a cutting from the chop. Maples grow insanely fast, and he could literally start from scratch. Sure, 10-15 years before he has a finished product, but he has complete control over it.

BTW, I have a trident I am beginning this process with next year and I cannot wait. Going to be exciting. I did get the timing of the chop right, didn't I? I meant to say if my timing is off on the chop, someone please correct me.
Oops didnt read until after I replied.
 

BeebsBonsai

Shohin
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I would recommend air layering in the fall next year. I will defer to people with air layer experience, because I don't have any, but I am pretty sure air layering on deciduous trees can be done early in the fall. If not, you will lose an extra year or so, because I would definitively say you don't want to air-layer when you repot. The main root mass needs to recover because after the air layer, only the foliage below the layer will be providing those roots with carbohydrates. You don't want to reduce the amount of leaves healing your main root mass when it is recovering from a repot. So you would have to move everything back an extra year.
 

BeebsBonsai

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Right. Makes more sense than bud swelling. Energy positive, tree needs less water because the leaves have their cuticles, but the weather is still going to allow 4-5 months of growth.
 

KiwiPlantGuy

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Right. Makes more sense than bud swelling. Energy positive, tree needs less water because the leaves have their cuticles, but the weather is still going to allow 4-5 months of growth.

Man this Beebs guy sounds like an expert. Or maybe a teacher?

Lol, come on Mr Beebs, there are soooo many threads on this website explaining all you have written. Why the need to be the expert or the teacher?

Unsure if this will come across nasty or just arse-ish. We all like to learn off others just maybe not in lecture form
:)
 

cole morton

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Man this Beebs guy sounds like an expert. Or maybe a teacher?

Lol, come on Mr Beebs, there are soooo many threads on this website explaining all you have written. Why the need to be the expert or the teacher?

Unsure if this will come across nasty or just arse-ish. We all like to learn off others just maybe not in lecture form
:)
I found great value in what both you and Beebs shared with me. I didn't find it too lecture like, but to each their own. I think every one on this forum who has shared information with me means well.
 

KiwiPlantGuy

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I found great value in what both you and Beebs shared with me. I didn't find it too lecture like, but to each their own. I think every one on this forum who has shared information with me means well.
Yep ok fair comment.
Charles
 

KiwiPlantGuy

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Right. Makes more sense than bud swelling. Energy positive, tree needs less water because the leaves have their cuticles, but the weather is still going to allow 4-5 months of growth.
Hi Beebs,
Re the air-layers -
To practise with more than one tree, and getting new trees for free is a win-win?
I am just a bit confused by your narrow minded version where you think ONLY do an air - layer if the original tree has a non- fixable FLAW.
Having lots of trees at different stages helps us learn what to do when. Can't be perfect straight away lol.
Charles
 

M. Frary

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Chop it and reduce the roots at the same time.
In the spring before the buds open.
No need to fool around steps 1,2 and however many stated above.
This way no waiting. Just proper bonsai techniques.
 

BeebsBonsai

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I have to respectfully disagree with Frary here. Patience is something you need to have with bonsai. Now, Frary, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you if he had this tree for say two or three years and knew it had proper care and good fertilization regimes, but he hasn't and he can't possibly know how well the previous owner cared for it. Even if I had perfect care for two years prior, I wouldn't do both operations at once. The roots need foliage to regenerate quickly, and the foliage needs healthy roots to grow strong and quickly after the repot. Could it survive, maybe, but chances of failure are high unless he is perfect with care, and even if he is perfect, he's going to get less vigorous growth through the roots and the foliage. At the end of the day, it will obviously be @cole morton 's decision, but in the event it dies because of it, @cole morton , you will kick yourself for doing so. If you wanted to say, try for an air layer with a small amount of the current apex, there isn't significant risk to the main portion of the intended tree. But use common sense a bit to make a decision on how much to air layer.
 

BeebsBonsai

Shohin
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Man this Beebs guy sounds like an expert. Or maybe a teacher?

Lol, come on Mr Beebs, there are soooo many threads on this website explaining all you have written. Why the need to be the expert or the teacher?

Unsure if this will come across nasty or just arse-ish. We all like to learn off others just maybe not in lecture form
:)

Definitely not an expert, and wouldn't claim to be one, but I do read and watch as much as I possibly can from the best bonsai professionals in the world. As for my writing style, combine four years at Northwestern University with business email style, and you get those bullets with small rambling sections. It's just how I write now. I agree that it can come off pedantic, but trying to explain the in's and out's of thousands of lines of data to people who shiver at the thought of spreadsheets all day causes that pedantic touch.

I also think there's value in the collation of information into one post. So, instead of cole having to look at all those various different threads, read the books, watch the videos, here's the consensus of majority and teachings of professionals in one post. I didn't find your comment nasty. Sometimes a little hip check is in order to realize where writing style can be improved.
 

M. Frary

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Even if I had perfect care for two years prior, I wouldn't do both operations at once
I would.
We're doing bonsai.
It doesn't matter what fertilizer the last guy used.
You're cutting off the roots and the foliage at once.
We're doing bonsai not a horticulture class.
I would cut it down in the spring and be on my way to doing bonsai.
Not just growing a tree in a bucket.
You may want to or like to watch a tree grow 2 years but not me.
I'm doing bonsai.
 

LanceMac10

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BeebsBonsai

Shohin
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Bonsai is horticulture and technique in tandem. If you perform any operation, not only should the aesthetic of the design be considered, but also the horticultural viability of the operation. What good does technique do on a dead tree? That's why horticulture is important. Keep the tree healthy enough to allow for the operation to take place. But, more importantly, keep the tree healthy enough to not only recover, but recover in the strongest way possible. In addition, I would agree that good horticultural practice does you no good without the ability to perform operations that improve the aesthetic of the tree. What good is the horticulture if your tree just looks like a bush? You have to consider both. Doing a proper, heavy root prune repot that is typical on maples, and cutting off all of the foliage in a chop at the same time is simply taking horticulture and throwing it out the window.

In the beginning of my initial response, I did say some people pry do this and have success (the tree survives), which really isn't success. Just because the tree survives does not mean this should be practiced. A little bit of patience goes a long way. When you repot, leave the foliage on to regrow the roots. Then after the roots are strong next spring, perform the chop. The time you spent to build up the roots will help build up the foliage again.
 

ajm55555

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Bonsai is horticulture and technique in tandem
You forget experience and the fact each species has its own peculiarities.
An experienced person probably knows what he can or cannot do despite what the books write because he knows his environment, the history of the plant, his previous attempts, what he wants to achieve, etc.
It's difficult to give general advices sometimes but, anyway, they add a piece of information and that's a good thing.
 

M. Frary

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a bush? You have to consider both. Doing a proper, heavy root prune repot that is typical on maples, and cutting off all of the foliage in a chop at the same time is simply taking horticulture and throwing it out the window.
It's done all the time in bonsai.
To deciduous trees of most makes and models. Maples,horbeam,hawthorn,elms etc.
If you cut roots off you need to take the foliage off. There are no roots to support it.
 

BeebsBonsai

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It's done all the time in bonsai.
To deciduous trees of most makes and models. Maples,horbeam,hawthorn,elms etc.
If you cut roots off you need to take the foliage off. There are no roots to support it.

I have seen so many articles from pros that explain how this is one of the most over-believed and incredibly false theories in balance of strength in bonsai. In fact, Ryan Neil actually kind of went off about this idea in this week's stream. He got as mad and ranty as I think I have ever seen him. He essentially said that the idea that you need to remove foliage when you root prune is completely wrong and ridiculous. He went on to explain that the tree needs the foliage to support growth and strength in the roots in order to get them to recover more quickly. More carbohydrates to the roots, more regeneration of the tissue. It's simple biology really. Just like if you don't eat and don't eat and don't eat, but you keep running and running, you will exhaust all of your energy and waste away.
 

BeebsBonsai

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I think the theory of foliage reduction at time of root prune started due to improper watering technique. People continued to water as they would have if they hadn't repotted, and we all know after a repot you have to monitor water closely because the tree isn't absorbing as much of it due to the lack of roots. People overwatered by accident, saw the trees decline and die, and thought it was due to the fact that the roots couldn't sustain the foliar mass. This part is just a theory on why that could have happened.
 
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