Acer Palmatum material find

[Bolero]

You already have good start on a tree looking like this, you just need to bring it out thru styling...

I think your Japanese Maple already has great potential and it just needs to be Brought out through Trimming, Pruning, Wiring and Styling...
No Chop Chop, No Root cutting yet...

That very skinny leafed branch on lower right, cut it off...
the very stout branch forming a "Y" on the left, shorten up the outward leafs an then wire & bend the trunk downward an inch or two...take some pictures for future ideas re trimming, wiring and repost here...
A very nice J Maple just needing some styling...

 

[M. Frary]

Ryan Neil[/QUOTE)
Hahahahaha.
Who?

 

[my nellie]

Some J. Acer cultivars do not air layer I have been said.
If @KiwiPlantGuy is correct and this is a non-cultivar then you have chances for air-layers.
However, Bill Valavanis says that trunk chop is best to be done the next season after removing the layers, so you should consider that you are going to loose one or two growing seasons with the trunk chop.
I myself made two air-layers to my Acer cultivar which haven't yet rooted https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/unidentified-j-maple.26454/
Looks like we are in similar paths with our trees I will keep an eye on your updates

 

[my nellie]

... ...if he had this tree for say two or three years and knew it had proper care and good fertilization regimes, but he hasn't and he can't possibly know how well the previous owner cared for it... ...

But this is the photo of his tree

View attachment 160330

Don't you think this photo talks about the tree's health?

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

But this is the photo of his tree Don't you think this photo talks about the tree's health?

Hi my nellie,
You make some good points especially the concept that 'Cole's' tree is healthy and can probably take whatever is thrown at it. Why wait 2 years when the tree is mega vigorous now. I think that was your thinking also?
Charles

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Definitely not an expert, and wouldn't claim to be one, but I do read and watch as much as I possibly can from the best bonsai professionals in the world. As for my writing style, combine four years at Northwestern University with business email style, and you get those bullets with small rambling sections. It's just how I write now. I agree that it can come off pedantic, but trying to explain the in's and out's of thousands of lines of data to people who shiver at the thought of spreadsheets all day causes that pedantic touch.

I also think there's value in the collation of information into one post. So, instead of cole having to look at all those various different threads, read the books, watch the videos, here's the consensus of majority and teachings of professionals in one post. I didn't find your comment nasty. Sometimes a little hip check is in order to realize where writing style can be improved.

Hi Beebs,
I have read all your have written and I can see a whole pile of theory here with little in practical Horticultural experience to back it up. Yes you have been to University where everyone learns how to be fantastic at the THEORY.
This I want to touch on now. I did an apprenticeship in Horticulture about 25 years ago, and been practising the joys of growing all sorts of plants to this day. I am a total Bonsai newbie and unfortunately I only agree with you on 1 point that this hobby joins Horticulture and Art. To do this plants stuff with practical experience and gut feel as to whether it will work or not requires shed loads of TIME with your fingers in the soil and not tidy clean fingers doing spreadsheets.
You seem to want to teach us all about your tame version of bonsai not realizing that M Frary has spent many years outside in agriculture, my self with plants all my life and your background as an accountant. Hope you can see my problem with this discussion. That we all need experience at growing Bonsai and yes I may have a slight advantage. But you might have 1-5 years of plants experience yet you argue with others with loads more practical experience.
Your method is very conservative and may work really well on conifers but vigorous deciduous grow like crazy and can handle almost anything you throw at them.
Lastly I do agree with you also regarding the trees leaves being the engine room which can then grow more roots and then grow more leaves. Small number of leaves equals small root growth ( slow growth in development stages). Too many times I see this on this website and wonder " why have they cut soooo many leaves/needles etc off?"
Charles.

 

[M. Frary]

In fact, Ryan Neil actually kind of went off about this idea in this week's stream. He got as mad and ranty as I think I have ever seen him. He essentially said that the idea that you need to remove foliage when you root prune is completely wrong and ridiculous

Besides being funny to watch is he talking about the first chop or later down the road after the tree is established in a bonsai pot?
Makes a big difference.
And have you,yourself ever tried this.
I mean doing a chop then sawing roots off of a nursery tree that's been in a bucket for God only knows how long? Or are you going on assumptions and things you've read?
It's really a cool thing to cut a tree down to a stump,wash the soil off of the roots,cut all the roots back,then replant it and watch it grow back furiously.
This was done in less than half of an hour. It isn't a maple. But a hawthorn. Which aren't supposed to be able to regenerate roots as a maple. I don't know where that comes from because this thing grows them so fast it needs repotted by late fall every year. The water just pools up on the surface and slowly seeps in. I have 2 maples that Ive done this to and 50 or more elms that have all gotten the same treatment. I've yet to lose a tree doing such things to them.
This is a few weeks after chop and root job.

This is now. 3 years later. I'll be pulling it out of the pot in the spring and hacking it back. I won't need to cut off any foliage because there won't be none on it yet. It will grow like it always does. No slowing down. Certainly no dieing.
It was close to 10 feet tall when I chopped it. It's 4 inches or more at the dirt. That maple will enjoy the experience.

 

[my nellie]

... ...Why wait 2 years when the tree is mega vigorous now. I think that was your thinking also?

To be precise I was referring to the air-layers.
IF @cole morton decides for layering some of the branches, this will be done next spring 2018.
Then IF the layers are successful will be cut off the mother tree say at the end of summer.
IF Cole decides to go safely (as per B. Valavanis and others' instruction) he will have to let the tree "recover" for the rest of growing season 2019.
Then comes 2020 for the trunk chop.
I myself have changed my mind regarding my above mentioned J. maple. I have lost one whole season of growing trunk and new branches

 

[M. Frary]

I don't see the use in layering straight branches. I've only performed 2 layers. One on a maple like this. Why? Japanese maples are hard to find here and I thought I saw something in one branch. It died in the winter anyway. Had to try it.
The other was a ground layer on my ugly elm to shorten it up.
Other than that I'm a chop it down,hack the roots back,get it into a colander with fast draining soil kind of guy.

 

[discusmike]

If it were mine id ditch the whole air layer thing and focus on making what you have a nice bonsai,the tree is healthy and will be able to handle root and branch pruning in spring,why waste a season air layering something of little value,not to mention you have never tried one and it will possibly fail or not make it thru the winter,just make sure you spray the tree with daconil before buds break and monitor your watering,early spring watering can be tricky especially after cutting roots,just make sure the soil is drying between waterings,if your getting alot of rain prop your pot on a angle so it will drain better.As john naka once said"me chicken,you chicken,no bonsai!"

 

[rockm]

A good air layer is WORTH THE TIME. Simply air layering a long uninteresting straight trunk insures you will be doubling your work on two pieces of mostly mediocre material...Air layerable trunks or limbs should have something that's remarkable about them--bends in particular. bends in the right places ideally...

 

[BeebsBonsai]

Hi Beebs,
I have read all your have written and I can see a whole pile of theory here with little in practical Horticultural experience to back it up. Yes you have been to University where everyone learns how to be fantastic at the THEORY.
This I want to touch on now. I did an apprenticeship in Horticulture about 25 years ago, and been practising the joys of growing all sorts of plants to this day. I am a total Bonsai newbie and unfortunately I only agree with you on 1 point that this hobby joins Horticulture and Art. To do this plants stuff with practical experience and gut feel as to whether it will work or not requires shed loads of TIME with your fingers in the soil and not tidy clean fingers doing spreadsheets.
You seem to want to teach us all about your tame version of bonsai not realizing that M Frary has spent many years outside in agriculture, my self with plants all my life and your background as an accountant. Hope you can see my problem with this discussion. That we all need experience at growing Bonsai and yes I may have a slight advantage. But you might have 1-5 years of plants experience yet you argue with others with loads more practical experience.
Your method is very conservative and may work really well on conifers but vigorous deciduous grow like crazy and can handle almost anything you throw at them.
Lastly I do agree with you also regarding the trees leaves being the engine room which can then grow more roots and then grow more leaves. Small number of leaves equals small root growth ( slow growth in development stages). Too many times I see this on this website and wonder " why have they cut soooo many leaves/needles etc off?"
Charles.

I don't consider any post or interaction on here argumentative in nature. I specifically check each time I post to ensure that there is no subtext to be read into as far as emotion goes. The specific point which I was mostly disagreeing with @M. Frary on was performing a trunk chop and repot at the same time. You actually seem to agree with that theory in your final paragraph. Also, I do disagree vehemently with the idea that you "need" to reduce foliage at the time of a repot. Which, I suppose spirals back into the idea of the two major operations at once. See above for the reasons on that.

@M. Frary , I do not mean any disrespect or distrust when disagreeing with your belief and proof that it can be done. You have plenty of hands-on experience and knowledge with it. While it works perfectly fine for you, with your already developed skill set, someone who is less proficient and perfect with their repotting skills and aftercare than you might not have that success. Of course, I would still caution against it and just wait the extra year, but if you have success, and have never seen growth impediment, that's kind of awesome. You cut down on the time to a finished product. But, we cannot assume that cole has the same adept handy work or ability to provide constant and consistent proper after care. I don't think you would disagree with the fact that performing both at the same time comes with a significantly higher risk factor than one at a time. Perhaps @cole morton is willing to take that risk. I wouldn't be, and perhaps I am a bit conservative. Again, M. Frary, no disrespect meant, and I hope none was taken.

@KiwiPlantGuy Your point was well-received and understood. I will refrain in the future. I was merely passing along the large amount of information from professionals that would caution against certain actions. Ohh, and I am not an accountant, Project Management is my profession. With these damn spreadsheets i might as well be an accountant though. LOL.

 

[discusmike]

If it were my tree it would be going into the ground,and i would chop below that straight branch and regrow from there but thats just me

 

[M. Frary]

y , I do not mean any disrespect or distrust when disagreeing with your belief

I know you don't.
But it isn't a belief. It's fact.
I wish it were spring. I'd go dig up 20 chop them and then guarantee it works.
Or even better would be 20 nursery trees in buckets.

But, we cannot assume that cole has the same adept handy work or ability to provide constant and consistent proper after care

All he needs to know is how to use a saw, and a hose. It's all pretty basic labor.
The aftercare is minimal. Full sun and water until green shows then start in with fertilizer. Stand back and watch it grow.
Done your way he's waiting around for a bit for really nothing.
Your way is your way. I get the whole caution thing. But it can slow you down.
No hard feelings.
I like the spirited discussions best.

 

[cole morton]

I appreciate all the detailed feedback I have recieved. I am going to wait on my decision until spring arives. At that time I will decide wether I see the value in air layering or to instead repot and trunk chop. Thanks again and I will be sure to update you all on the progress.

 

[rockm]

I'd have to agree with Mike F. Trunk chops and "repotting" at the same time are basically what's done when you collect a larger deciduous tree from the wild. The way he handled the Hawthorn repot is pretty much standard operating procedure for collected trees.

Japanese maples aren't delicate trees. For instance, they can be root pruned and repotted while in full leaf in June or so. It is an alternative repotting window for them that is used by more than a few "bonsai professionals." I have repeatedly trunk chopped and root pruned JMs at the same time for years in the spring with no real issues. The first session when getting them out of a nursery container involves doing both. Doing both at the same time at every repot is counterproductive, however, since an intact root mass is more efficient at pushing out the next trunk extension.

Transferring that practice to already-containerized trees is a no-brainer. Containerized trees have vastly more compact and efficient root masses--which is what we aim for it putting bonsai containers. Removing even two thirds of a containerized tree's roots is still nowhere near the 95-99 percent removal of roots that a collected tree experiences.

Calling its proven effectiveness a "belief" comes off as a bit condescending, especially if you've never actually done it. Developing skill sets is what we're about here, mostly. Assuring people that they should take five years longer that is necessary isn't developing a skill set. It's a waste of five years. Advising that the shorter, less timid, path to a design goal is not possible for someone who's not done it before is a kind of circular reasoning. If you don't do it, you won't learn how to do it. If you've never done it, how can you attest that it is safer than a more time consuming path? How do you know, other than reading about it or seeing it on a video?

Yeah, bonsai is about patience, but it's also about taking bold steps to advance, or remain unskilled and ignorant of what can be done.

 

[M. Frary]

Calling its proven effectiveness a "belief" comes off as a bit condescending, especially if you've never actually done it. Developing skill sets is what we're about here, mostly. Assuring people that they should take five years longer that is necessary isn't developing a skill set. It's a waste of five years. Advising that the shorter, less timid, path to a design goal is not possible for someone who's not done it before is a kind of circular reasoning. If you don't do it, you won't learn how to do it. If you've never done it, how can you attest that it is safer than a more time consuming path? How do you know, other than reading about it or seeing it on a video

Just what I was trying to say but I didn't have the words.

 

[ColinFraser]

If you're still considering layers, here's a palmatum layer progression you might find interesting or helpful:
Japanese Maple Air Layer