acer rubrum from air layer

[cdefoe]

i started an air layer in june at my parents place in northwest wisconsin, zone 3. hoping to use this thread to document the progress, provided i can keep this poor bastard alive

i will preface this post by saying this is the largest air layer i've attempted, my first deciduous tree, and overall something i'm treating as a learning experience. throughout this process i have identified some mistakes i'll point out as well as some lessons learned i'll summarize at the end for anyone reading

spotted this unlucky victim on a tree on the side of my parents' driveway getting absorbed by an oak. applied the air layer in june. it was stuffed with roots

 

[cdefoe]

my pops helped me prepare a grow box with some scrap he was eager to get rid of following @markyscott's thread: here

stage is set

 

[cdefoe]

the victim of my sick and twisted ambition:

so this is where my first two (hopefully, in the grand scheme of things, minor) mistakes were that i'll learn from for next time - more on that later. after some doing using a handheld circular saw, i got it separated and got a flat enough cut that i could secure to the board, mostly so that I could secure the tree into the pot without damaging the roots, but i'll take any help developing radial roots that i can get

you might be able to spot the third mistake above.

here it is from a few angles after getting it all potted up:

 

[cdefoe]

here's where i didn't make any mistakes - the most important steps:

 

[cdefoe]

so, lessons learned:

1. make sure to mill your sphagnum before applying the layer instead of using the whole long fibers. i tried to tease away as much as i could before planting, but the thing was so full of roots that it was hopeless without damaging them, leading to:
2. don't go overboard packing the moss in and getting it too tight. i even wrapped a wire around the midpoint because i had read that it was important to have it be snug. i ended up restricting the root growth from going all the way down, so i have a mess of roots growing down and then up into the moss that's above the trunkline. you can see how i addressed this by piling up soil and sphagnum above the lip of the box and wrapping in foil/wire to secure. i figure if the tree doesn't die, it'll grow roots down into the box and i can address this in 2022 when i work the roots next. this leads to the next lesson
3. measure and get an idea of how deep to plant it. i could have potted this sucker lower in the box, but by the time i realized this mistake, the board had already been tied down and i felt there was no going back. if i end up regretting this later because the tree has died, well, at least i won't make this mistake again
4. however much soil you think you need, make sure you've got twice on hand. if the box were any bigger (18 x 18 inches) i would have not had enough
5. milling that much sphagnum moss by hand with a small sieve sucks whole entire ass

anyways, sound off in the comments to call me the absolute idiot of the world and tell me where i went wrong

i figure, even in the worst case scenario where the tree dies, i learned some lessons for free, excepting the cost of soil, wire, and sphagnum. best case, i've got a decent project to work/practice on for the next decade

 

[cdefoe]

thanks for reading, if this sucker survives i'll post updates here. i plan on overwintering in my parents 3 season porch where it will be protected from the worst of the brutal wind/cold that is a zone 3/4 winter. hopefully anyone reading can learn from my mistakes. anyone with more experience or wisdom to add or anyone who just wants to tell me what a Bad Man i am for my miserable crimes against bonsai, nature, and the world in general please feel free to chime in

 

[Trenthany]

thanks for reading, if this sucker survives i'll post updates here. i plan on overwintering in my parents 3 season porch where it will be protected from the worst of the brutal wind/cold that is a zone 3/4 winter. hopefully anyone reading can learn from my mistakes. anyone with more experience or wisdom to add or anyone who just wants to tell me what a Bad Man i am for my miserable crimes against bonsai, nature, and the world in general please feel free to chime in

Love the tips on mistakes you made! This is how we learn preferably from others making these mistakes!

I’ve learned the “snug” and “firm” thing is definitely not what I would call snug. More like just make sure it’s in contact.

Long fibered has been discussed before but I didn’t find out before I started experimenting either!

Reciprocating saws or pruning saws work so much better than circular saws for this!

Measure twice, cut once!

Measure twice, buy once, or buy in bulk! Never have too much soil on hand! As a side note I haven’t heard anyone mention it but I save my fines and add sifted composts, potting soils, nursery mixes etc to it to extend my soils and add amendments to it and it seems to make for an amazing blend. Are you or anyone else doing something similar or am I the inly

Build sifters! I haven’t done mine yet but I’m going to search @markyscott posts to find his design because so far he always posts the best tutorials and lots of people have referenced them. I know I saw them once but can’t find them again of course. Lol. Also going to rip of @BillsBayou design for motorizing and try to combine. If they aren’t good combined maybe I’ll do something different. I know I want one step multi grade sifting though 100% a long table that has various screens along it, or stacked I’m going for single step to grade out multiple sizes.

Ok by mill did you mean sift? Because going back to keep adding comments I noticed you said mill and I was like wait a sec. are you talking about rubbing it through a sifter to cut it up? Because I’d use a chef’s knife or the blender/food processor method to do it if that’s the case! Or make a chopper of some sort. Personally I just hand shred mine when I use it in soils setting aside long bits until I have handful then shred or chop them. or maybe I’m misunderstanding entirely. Lol.

Just because you asked you’re a Bad Man for your crimes against nature, bonsai and the world in general!

 

[cdefoe]

As a side note I haven’t heard anyone mention it but I save my fines and add sifted composts, potting soils, nursery mixes etc to it to extend my soils and add amendments to it and it seems to make for an amazing blend. Are you or anyone else doing something similar or am I the inly

i have been saving my smaller particles for my shohin trees and i do have a big ol' bag of fines for muck to be used with any future rock plantings or kokedama projects or the like

Build sifters! I haven’t done mine yet but I’m going to search @markyscott posts to find his design because so far he always posts the best tutorials and lots of people have referenced them. I know I saw them once but can’t find them again of course. Lol.

yeah, going forward i'm definitely going to have to figure something out here. i think it shouldn't be too difficult to make a couple boxes lined with varying mesh sized bottoms that could be used to sift more soil than the ~10 inch diameter sifters i've been using. not sure i'm quite to the level of needing to craft a mechanical one haha...

Ok by mill did you mean sift? Because going back to keep adding comments I noticed you said mill and I was like wait a sec. are you talking about rubbing it through a sifter to cut it up?

yeah rubbing it through my sifter to break it into finer particles. just throw a podcast on and Get In the Zone. it's ass but i'm doing my best to bury those memories deep down where they will only torment me in my nightmares

Just because you asked you’re a Bad Man for your crimes against nature, bonsai and the world in general!

thank you

 

[0soyoung]

i have been saving my smaller particles for my shohin trees and i do have a big ol' bag of fines for muck to be used with any future rock plantings or kokedama projects or the like

Not a good idea.
The need of roots on small tree are the same as when it is big.

Smaller trees are usually in smaller and shallower pots --> higher risk of root anoxia by drowning with little guys to start with
Further, smaller grains = lower air filled porosity --> taller saturation layer.

 

[cdefoe]

Not a good idea.
The need of roots on small tree are the same as when it is big.

Smaller trees are usually in smaller and shallower pots --> higher risk of root anoxia by drowning with little guys to start with
Further, smaller grains = lower air filled porosity --> taller saturation layer.

so these are 1/8 to 3/8 inch particles, or anything that makes it through the 3/8 inch sifter and isn't a fine - should i just not be filtering these out? i had read that this can help retain moisture in a smaller, shohin pot. if this is ill advised, for the reasons you've stated, i'm glad to know and will adjust for the future

 

[0soyoung]

so these are 1/8 to 3/8 inch particles, or anything that makes it through the 3/8 inch sifter and isn't a fine - should i just not be filtering these out? i had read that this can help retain moisture in a smaller, shohin pot. if this is ill advised, for the reasons you've stated, i'm glad to know and will adjust for the future

I missed your definition of the 'smaller size'. The discussion seemed to be about fines and I concluded 'smaller size' meant something like 'fines' or particles so small that you wouldn't normally use.

Anyway, I suggest that you use the same size substrate particles for a shohin (JBP, say) as you would for a chuhin (JBP). If you are having trouble keeping mame/shohin from drying out, sitting them on a tray or nesting them in a bigger pot filled with 'fines' (stuff you wouldn't use) will help - water the whole works when you water.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

PSA from JKL, but wear dust masks when sifting or milling spaghnum in particular, but also pumice or DME, really anything. Lung disease is not a joke, and some of our components are surprisingly nasty when inhaled in particulate form.

Cheers!

 

[Trenthany]

I missed your definition of the 'smaller size'. The discussion seemed to be about fines and I concluded 'smaller size' meant something like 'fines' or particles so small that you wouldn't normally use.

Anyway, I suggest that you use the same size substrate particles for a shohin (JBP, say) as you would for a chuhin (JBP). If you are having trouble keeping mame/shohin from drying out, sitting them on a tray or nesting them in a bigger pot filled with 'fines' (stuff you wouldn't use) will help - water the whole works when you water.

I like the nested pot idea myself. Makes sense.

 

[cdefoe]

PSA from JKL, but wear dust masks when sifting or milling spaghnum in particular, but also pumice or DME, really anything. Lung disease is not a joke, and some of our components are surprisingly nasty when inhaled in particulate form.

Cheers!

all soil was sifted and sphagnum handled wearing gloves and a mask, of course!

 

[Trenthany]

PSA from JKL, but wear dust masks when sifting or milling spaghnum in particular, but also pumice or DME, really anything. Lung disease is not a joke, and some of our components are surprisingly nasty when inhaled in particulate form.

Cheers!

Protective gear? Does rain count? Half the time one sifting that’s keeping any dust down for me!

Always wear gear is very good advice because there are a lot of materials that have very sharp dust particles that can do damage inside your nasal passages, esophagus, and lungs.

 

[cdefoe]

guess what, y'all? turns out my suspicions that i'm the Dumbest Boy of the World were indeed correct, and i've learned another valuable lesson from this ill fated project: use a bigger screw

while i was packing up and getting ready to head home, i heard a crash and saw the tree situated, decidedly, out of the box. luckily the roots were not really damaged, so i took the opportunity to replant the tree (with a much thicker and longer screw) and lower it as much as possible. added more wires for support and added some wood blocks for more support

hope y'all can learn from my own dumb ass. i know i sure did