Acer rubrum Project

[theta]

I had seen this tree a few times when I visit this nursery way in the back and thought about what I could do with it, so today I got it. Surprisingly the roots weren't through the bottom of the pot and into the ground, I'm sure they were at some point, but someone has come along and pruned them back into the pot, so I could lift it up easily. Now I just need to come up with a plan of attack on this thing.

It will definitely be a bigger bonsai, I'm thinking I might use the new leader and taper that is already there for the next section, rather than chopping down lower, but I do have a tenancy to not chop low enough and regret it later.

Dunno, what would you guys do with this?

 

[Deleted member 21616]

what would you guys do with this?

i would plant it in the ground and let it be a full grown tree

you have access to such great material in the USA, it is so easy to start with something that is more suitable for bonsai

 

[Cajunrider]

i would plant it in the ground and let it be a full grown tree

you have access to such great material in the USA, it is so easy to start with something that is more suitable for bonsai

I agree. I bought two Acer rubrum and am happy with them in the ground. I'd rather focus my bonsai effort on things more suitable.

 

[just.wing.it]

I'd love to have an Acer Rubrum like that.
I think they are an under appreciated species for bonsai.
I've seen some good ones out there.

Also, they are native to my area, so I keep my eyes peeled.

Working natives always goes better.

I would probably chop below that transition, it seem too high from the pic, then let it grow wild and hedge prune it until its a bushy thing....then in a few years start selecting what to keep.

 

[rockm]

This tree looks to have a pretty significant problem with the nebari. It looks extremely lopsided or one sided. That's a big problem with such a big tree....

 

[just.wing.it]

This tree looks to have a pretty significant problem with the nebari. It looks extremely lopsided or one sided. That's a big problem with such a big tree....

I have to agree with this though....
Maybe you could graft cuttings to build a nebari some day.

 

[theta]

Thanks for the input guys, I know red maples aren't the best for bonsai, unfortunately. The reason I got this was I do like the idea of working with native species, trees you see everyday driving around. I love the old trunk and base (which has it's own set of issues though), and is already in a pot, so don't have to dig it up, but will still take a ton of work getting the roots pruned back, plus it's already been chopped and regrown (although way too high). Plus it was super cheap. There's a lot to like and dislike haha.

I don't really want to just plant it in the yard and forget about it. At the very least, I'm leaning towards using it to practice grafting techniques all over it with some other red maple saplings I have growing. I need to practice thread, approach and root grafting, so this may be perfect for that.

Yes, the nebari is very uneven, I haven't had a chance to really examine it further under the soil and see what's going on, but it's not looking good.

Is it crazy to try to make this thing like a 3'- 4' tree? I can see this kind of working on a large scale.

 

[Cajunrider]

Thanks for the input guys, I know red maples aren't the best for bonsai, unfortunately. The reason I got this was I do like the idea of working with native species, trees you see everyday driving around. I love the old trunk and base (which has it's own set of issues though), and is already in a pot, so don't have to dig it up, but will still take a ton of work getting the roots pruned back, plus it's already been chopped and regrown (although way too high). Plus it was super cheap. There's a lot to like and dislike haha.

I don't really want to just plant it in the yard and forget about it. At the very least, I'm leaning towards using it to practice grafting techniques all over it with some other red maple saplings I have growing. I need to practice thread, approach and root grafting, so this may be perfect for that.

Yes, the nebari is very uneven, I haven't had a chance to really examine it further under the soil and see what's going on, but it's not looking good.

Is it crazy to try to make this thing like a 3'- 4' tree? I can see this kind of working on a large scale.

If you have thought this through, far be it for me to stand in your way.

 

[0soyoung]

Having been down similar roads a few times, my thinking is to work it down to keeping only the bottom third to half of the trunk. By "work it down" I mean chop higher, get sprouts, then choose the final chop just above the one(s) that are going to make my design direction. If you don't 'get radical', I think you'll wind up with a huge bonsai that will take a forklift to move.

Meanwhile, I think I would want to change the soil or at least pop that pot off and get some idea of what the roots are like. They are likely a gnarly, tubular mess, but that might be interesting and would have a big influence on my design ambitions. For example, I had the base of a field grown acer palmatum and it occurred to me one day to use them as the feature, So I'm having some fun making a cartoon-ish bonsai of it.

If the roots aren't going to be a feature of your bonsai vision, @theta, then I think you need to first focus your attention on eliminating the root mess and getting a good nebari started, making the top the second priority.

 

[theta]

I like that idea of working it down. I also like the idea of having a huge bonsai like 4 ft high.

That's a solid plan with addressing the roots first, I'm going to dig into this sooner or later and see what I'm dealing with.

Trident maple branches grafted onto a rubrum trunk????

 

[rockm]

Thanks for the input guys, I know red maples aren't the best for bonsai, unfortunately. The reason I got this was I do like the idea of working with native species, trees you see everyday driving around. I love the old trunk and base (which has it's own set of issues though), and is already in a pot, so don't have to dig it up, but will still take a ton of work getting the roots pruned back, plus it's already been chopped and regrown (although way too high). Plus it was super cheap. There's a lot to like and dislike haha.

I don't really want to just plant it in the yard and forget about it. At the very least, I'm leaning towards using it to practice grafting techniques all over it with some other red maple saplings I have growing. I need to practice thread, approach and root grafting, so this may be perfect for that.

Yes, the nebari is very uneven, I haven't had a chance to really examine it further under the soil and see what's going on, but it's not looking good.

Is it crazy to try to make this thing like a 3'- 4' tree? I can see this kind of working on a large scale.

It can be made into a very effective three foot tree with forced taper grow/cut leaders over several years. I wouldn't go taller than that. The top two feet of that trunk are kind of straight, monotonous and mostly uninteresting for much use.

 

[rockm]

I like that idea of working it down. I also like the idea of having a huge bonsai like 4 ft high.

That's a solid plan with addressing the roots first, I'm going to dig into this sooner or later and see what I'm dealing with.

Trident maple branches grafted onto a rubrum trunk????

If you're going to graft non-native species onto a native trunk, you're mostly cancelling out what you collected the tree for. It wouldn't be native... Some folks graft shimpaku juniper onto 1,000 year old Rocky Mountain juniper because the native foliage isn't easy to work with on that species--or at least not as easy as shimpaku. I thinks that's kind of a sin, but I'm a purist with this stuff

 

[theta]

If you're going to graft non-native species onto a native trunk, you're mostly cancelling out what you collected the tree for. It wouldn't be native... Some folks graft shimpaku juniper onto 1,000 year old Rocky Mountain juniper because the native foliage isn't easy to work with on that species--or at least not as easy as shimpaku. I thinks that's kind of a sin, but I'm a purist with this stuff

Yeah, I hear ya on that - Just thinking out loud. I've always thought it was weird to graft itoigawa or whatever on rocky mountain too, but that's what made me think, if red maple foliage is a pain, I wonder if anyone's ever grafted something like trident maple to replace it? Like you said, it's done all the time with junipers and pines, but I don't know if it is with deciduous? For some reason it feels like deciduous should stay pure.

 

[rockm]

Yeah, I hear ya on that - Just thinking out loud. I've always thought it was weird to graft itoigawa or whatever on rocky mountain too, but that's what made me think, if red maple foliage is a pain, I wonder if anyone's ever grafted something like trident maple to replace it? Like you said, it's done all the time with junipers and pines, but I don't know if it is with deciduous? For some reason it feels like deciduous should stay pure.

I don't know if trident is close enough genetically to use for graft on acer rubrum...might take, might not

 

[0soyoung]

"We" had a discussion about this sort of stuff a while back. There is a link in this post that will inform you of the possibilities, thanks to @AlainK

But, also note that there is a number of a. rubrum cultivars, so you might find it easier to replace the foliage with that of a more attractive and/or smaller leafed cultivar.

 

[theta]

I have no idea what I'm looking at here, haha.



Other side where the root base curved in. Beneath the curve is just a solid mass of old dead wood and dead roots.

 

[plant_dr]

The last picture looks like a very large animal foot stepped on a small rodent or something.

On a more bonsai-ish note, maybe all that deadwood could be hollowed out and be turned into a feature of the tree instead of a liability. Maybe a broom style or fairytale style..

 

[plant_dr]

The living roots look very gnarly and fairytale to me. That's where I'd go with it. Plus you got some free seedlings, bonus!

 

[theta]

Cut it down and its regrowing nicely.


I noticed at each node along the branch theres these little leaves with super short petioles. Kind of hard to see, but im wondering how to take advantage of this growth. Maybe cut the branch back to the first node and see if these take over and develop?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I don't know. I see the short petioles and smallish leaves. I don't know how to encourage that.

Myself, I would explore and work the root system first, as this is where the possible feature for a ''Fantasy Tree'' might be. Otherwise, you have your large diameter straight trunk, that seems tall. So if the roots are workable into a ''feature'', then you could chop the trunk fairly low, say 8 inches above the roots. THen grow segments to finish at about 24 to 36 inches tall. Remember 4:1 up to 6:1 tree height to diameter of trunk above the nebari will give the appearance of an old tree. 10:1 to 20:1 will give the appearance of a tree in a forest, a slender mature tree, For that gnarly nebari I would go more toward the old tree look. This is a guide, not an absolute, not a rigid rule.

The height of the tree -generally, you can divide the lay out of a tree in thirds. First third is the main trunk, second third is the secondary trunks and main branches, outer third is the finer branches and leaves. If I were you I would measure the length of your first segment of trunk, and see what the formula would predict for final size, if it is in range, you are good. If the formula says you need a tree 9 feet tall, then I would definitely chop the trunk lower.

As to grafting - buy or take out from public library Vetrees book on Japanese maples - there is a grafting compatibility chart or table in there, showing which maple species are compatible with other species. The bad news is there will be graft incompatibility between Japanese maples, and Acer rubrum. I don't recall if trident and rubrum are compatible or not. It is worth seeking out this book if you decide to do interspecific grafting. Pines are pretty much universally compatible, maples are not. So seek the book out and check more recent maple books.