Advice on direction of JBP

[BonsaiAndTheBees]

Hello everyone! I am very new to bonsai but have been a voracious consumer of as much bonsai knowledge as possible. The best advice I am trying to follow is "Go get your hands dirty!". So that is what I have been doing. I bought a Japanese Black Pine nursery tree which had been left to grow wild. I took a stab at pruning, shaping and wiring and was looking for feedback on the form or direction you think this tree is capable of going. I know my wiring is horrendous (it was the first time i have ever wired a tree) so please be gentle. My sense is that some of the branches are kind of leggy but they are growing on me (no pun intended) and am wondering what more seasoned eyes see in this tree. I think I found the best front but am also curious what others think.

Thank you all in advance for your input! And this forum is awesome. I am very glad I found this place!

This is what the tree looked like when I got it:


Front(?):


Other sides

 

[RobertB]

First I would get a ficus to practice wiring on. Or even landscape trees around you. Hell, even broken limbs. I think wiring JBP FOR A BEGINNER IS HARD. You probably damaged many of the needles in the process. I would water very carefully and let it grow hard for a season then reassess next year want you want to accomplish with the tree. Meanwhile, learn as much as you can about Japanese black pine. I suggest bonsai tonight.com as a starting reference. Tons of info there. Just don't do anything on for a while. Also suggest bring to a local club and jointing. Try and find someone experienced with JBP TO HELP YOU!

 

[Adair M]

First I would get a ficus to practice wiring on. Or even landscape trees around you. Hell, even broken limbs. I think wiring JBP FOR A BEGINNER IS HARD. You probably damaged many of the needles in the process. I would water very carefully and let it grow hard for a season then reassess next year want you want to accomplish with the tree. Meanwhile, learn as much as you can about Japanese black pine. I suggest bonsai tonight.com as a starting reference. Tons of info there. Just don't do anything on for a while. Also suggest bring to a local club and jointing. Try and find someone experienced with JBP TO HELP YOU!

Bonsaitonight.com is a great blog about JBP.

Another good resource are Boon’s JBP videos. You can buy his DVDs from his website, or purchase or rent them via streaming over the Internet. Go to www.bonsaiboon.com.

 

[RobertB]

Oh, start some seedlings also! Perfect time and very easy! Good learning material before you try anything on this plant.

 

[Adair M]

Oh, start some seedlings also! Perfect time and very easy! Good learning material before you try anything on this plant.

Too late. He’s already started.

 

[BonsaiAndTheBees]

First I would get a ficus to practice wiring on. Or even landscape trees around you. Hell, even broken limbs. I think wiring JBP FOR A BEGINNER IS HARD. You probably damaged many of the needles in the process. I would water very carefully and let it grow hard for a season then reassess next year want you want to accomplish with the tree. Meanwhile, learn as much as you can about Japanese black pine. I suggest bonsai tonight.com as a starting reference. Tons of info there. Just don't do anything on for a while. Also suggest bring to a local club and jointing. Try and find someone experienced with JBP TO HELP YOU!

When I say I am very new, maybe I should clarify. I have been doing bonsai for a year and have taken a couple courses at our local bonsai place and done a bunch of courses at bonsaiempire and read countless books and forum posts, etc. I have ten or so trees that are doing well with me just doing maintenance and small pruning. This was just my first foray into wiring. I appreciate the caution you urge but I gotta try at some point. I was asking for input about design and form rather than just being told to not try. But i appreciate the point of view.

 

[Johnathan]

Great job for the courage to post and ask for advice!

There is an AWESOME tutorial on wiring from Colin Lewis on Craftsy. Its Free, its detailed, and its awesome!!!

 

[Adair M]

When I say I am very new, maybe I should clarify. I have been doing bonsai for a year and have taken a couple courses at our local bonsai place and done a bunch of courses at bonsaiempire and read countless books and forum posts, etc. I have ten or so trees that are doing well with me just doing maintenance and small pruning. This was just my first foray into wiring. I appreciate the caution you urge but I gotta try at some point. I was asking for input about design and form rather than just being told to not try. But i appreciate the point of view.

BonsaiNut is like a box of chocolates. You never know...

 

[River's Edge]

When I say I am very new, maybe I should clarify. I have been doing bonsai for a year and have taken a couple courses at our local bonsai place and done a bunch of courses at bonsaiempire and read countless books and forum posts, etc. I have ten or so trees that are doing well with me just doing maintenance and small pruning. This was just my first foray into wiring. I appreciate the caution you urge but I gotta try at some point. I was asking for input about design and form rather than just being told to not try. But i appreciate the point of view.

Design and form starts with the nebari and the trunk flow and movement!
Therefore the first step would involve becoming familiar with the roots and possible planting angles and various options before beginning. This is why i typically reccomend that one repot if the timing is right to set the base for planning ahead.

Second step would be to become familiar with common conifer styles and comparing those styles with the potential of your tree. What might be a fit? Which branches should be kept, what direction should they be wired, which foliage should be removed to allow the interior to stay healthy,

From your own description so far it does not appear that the nebari has been considered or other planting angles have been considered. In all fairness the best advice for your tree going forward could only be offered if that information was available .

For example sometimes the best course of action is to change the planting angle first with a repot and develop the nebari to support the new planting angle.

Just because you asked a specific question does not mean that those who really wish to help cannot give sound advice.
You can always ignore the advice. If on the other hand you only wish to hear what you think you need to know then the answer will be less than complete.
Let the tree recover, remove the wire and repot in the fall if the tree is doing well. The wire will not do the job it needs to do and the branches have not been positioned for conifer styling. The tree should be becoming active now and it would be better to wire it late next fall or early winter.
When you repot get help from an experienced person and carefully study the options before deciding on the planting angle. This will give you a great opportunity to examine the root system and base your timing for future planning and work schedule.

 

[BonsaiAndTheBees]

Design and form starts with the nebari and the trunk flow and movement!
Therefore the first step would involve becoming familiar with the roots and possible planting angles and various options before beginning. This is why i typically reccomend that one repot if the timing is right to set the base for planning ahead.

Second step would be to become familiar with common conifer styles and comparing those styles with the potential of your tree. What might be a fit? Which branches should be kept, what direction should they be wired, which foliage should be removed to allow the interior to stay healthy,

From your own description so far it does not appear that the nebari has been considered or other planting angles have been considered. In all fairness the best advice for your tree going forward could only be offered if that information was available .

For example sometimes the best course of action is to change the planting angle first with a repot and develop the nebari to support the new planting angle.

Just because you asked a specific question does not mean that those who really wish to help cannot give sound advice.
You can always ignore the advice. If on the other hand you only wish to hear what you think you need to know then the answer will be less than complete.
Let the tree recover, remove the wire and repot in the fall if the tree is doing well. The wire will not do the job it needs to do and the branches have not been positioned for conifer styling. The tree should be becoming active now and it would be better to wire it late next fall or early winter.
When you repot get help from an experienced person and carefully study the options before deciding on the planting angle. This will give you a great opportunity to examine the root system and base your timing for future planning and work schedule.

This tree was repotted about a month ago, so I don't think I should repot again so soon. And the nebari (what little there is) was considered in the planting angle which I did with a local bonsai store owner. The reason I question the front is mostly because of the huge cut that was made on that side which I'm worried will be a permanent scar. Im curious which branches you feel aren't in the confier style? That is the type of feedback I'm looking for.

 

[River's Edge]

This tree was repotted about a month ago, so I don't think I should repot again so soon. And the nebari (what little there is) was considered in the planting angle which I did with a local bonsai store owner. The reason I question the front is mostly because of the huge cut that was made on that side which I'm worried will be a permanent scar. Im curious which branches you feel aren't in the confier style? That is the type of feedback I'm looking for.

1. After the repot the tree should have rested until fall at least. ( you did not mention that it was just repotted in your first post)

2. Conifer branch wiring normally begins by bringing the branch down rather than up as in deciduous styling. I cannot make out any branches that are wired to begin with in a downward direction. perhaps it is the photo angle. Further there does not appear to be any change of direction or movement introduced to the straight section of most branches. Down then up and some side to side. ( check out any of the pines posted in the forum that have been styled)

3. If scars are treated correctly they can heal very nicely over time, it is best if large scars are to the side or the back of the design.

4. Two of the most valuable features in a pine from an evaluation point of view are Nebari and Trunk movement and taper.
You have indicated the nebari is poor and noted the huge scar on the trunk base, an indication that the foundation of strong design is missing in this tree from the beginning. The trunk has some very straight sections as well. This is the basis of my next suggestion.
Take some time to study how to select appropriate basic material for bonsai. You seem interested and willing to apply yourself, it will be a lot more rewarding if you start with better material. It does not always have to cost more, it often just takes more time.

 

[Smoke]

"it will be a lot more rewarding if you start with better material."

I am reminded of Chick McGee on the "Mr. Obvious Show". "what you got there caller, is bad material"

 

[Adair M]

I’m not so sure it was bad material. There sure was a lot of foliage in the “before” image. But, I can’t see the structure of what was there, so it’s impossible to say if the current styling was optimal.

I will say that it appears that the current wiring is ineffective, and what’s left on the tree could be better placed.

But, pines can take a while to get their structure right. And, what’s more, almost anything can be fixed via grafting.

Here’s a pine, still rough, that I started about 4 years ago:



The first thing I did was plant it in a relatively flat growing pot. No branch work for a year. Then, I cut it back, and began putting in the sharp bend. I then grafted on a few branches. A year later, I grafted on a few more. This year, I increased the bend, and repotted into the bonsai pot, and wired it out. It’s still leggy, but it’s backbudding, and if necessary, I can do more grafts. Pines often go thru an “ugly duckling” stage during development.

So, hang in there, see how the tree responds to what you’ve done. Rome wasn’t built in a day. Neither are Pines.

 

[BackyardBonsai]

Here we go again....