Advice on new Chinese Elm

[eolson]

I recently purchased this chinese elm and once i got it i realized it was pot bound in a bad way... ( See picture) So i went ahead and repotted it to a free draining soil and a larger pot ( I am a little concerned the new pot is too big?). Now I am trying to decide what direction to take the tree in. I am not sure if it should be pushed towards a Shohin size or should it be grown out a bit for Kifu? I am also not sure what a good style for it would be? Thanks for the advice!

When I first got the tree:

Roots:

I cut about 1.5 ft off of this to start getting the roots into shape to eventually put into a bonsai pot
New Pot

 

[JudyB]

How deep is that pot? It doesn't look too big, as long as it's not too deep. Fast draining soil is good. That root pic is hilarious!
I would feed it pretty heavily and let it get some trunk size on it. It looks at this point like a natural broom style... These grow fast, you'll be on your way in no time.

Make sure you don't overwater it since it may be in a bit too large of a pot. Put a skewer in it and don't water it till it's getting dry...

 

[Adair M]

That's not what I would call a "free draining soil". It appears to have a LOT of organic material in it. What we call "soil" in bonsai, most non-bonsai people would call "itty bittly little rocks"!

What you SHOULD have done, when you repotted, was to plant in a shallower container. Splayed the roots out so that they grow OUT, not down. Your tree is pretty small, but you could pin the roots onto a small piece of wood. Maybe even staple them down (not tight). The idea is to train the roots to go OUT, in a radial fashion away from the trunk.

You do have a natural broom style tree. It's pretty cute.

Good luck with it!

 

[eolson]

The pot is about 7 in deep. I tried to place the long root all the way from the bottom of the pot to the top but i dont know if it will be able to absorb enough moisture since there are very few fine roots along the length. I suppose I will wait and see how long it takes between waterings and determine if it needs a smaller pot that way. Thanks for the reply

 

[Adair M]

That long root...is it going straight down? If so you don't want it. At all. What you want are lots of little roots going out from all sides.

For reference, I'll show what I did with my Japanese Grey Bark Elm (Zelkova). Granted, it's a larger tree, and I used screws to position the roots where I wanted them. But the idea I'm trying to get across is the roots should go OUT, not DOWN.

 

[eolson]

I realize that it is not completely free draining but compared to what it was when I got the tree (100% organic soil) it is much better (now about 50/50 coarse sand and "bonsai" soil). For the time being I dont have any better types of inorganic soils and I want to keep some organic content since I am located in southern california and it gets somewhat warm here, I would like to be able to not worry about the tree drying out super fast in case the temp spikes or I am away for a few days. Currently all my trees are in a similar soil, a young trident maple and a young juniper. If you think it is very important to get a better draining soil there is a bonsai nursery semi close to me that should have some better soils. Should i repot all with better soil or wait until next season for repot?

Well right now it is kind of coiled running down the pot. Would you recommend trimming it back to the point where there are just the upper roots and repotting it into a smaller container? Can Chinese Elms handle that sort of aggressive root pruning?

 

[edprocoat]

It looks like a Catlin Elm with the small leaves, thats a Chinese elm. It would make a nice broom style as these elms almost "broom style" on their own. From your picture it does not seem like you have a tap root as was mentioned above in the post about the root going "straight down". These elms respond well to root cutting! If you left 7 inches of roots on this you have a good candidate for a ROR style, it would also make a lovely windswept tree, it has a great start already with the two upper trunks almost in the perfect position for windswept already.

Good Luck and keep her happy.

ed

 

[Adair M]

Yep. Chinese elms can hande getting run over by a freight train and come back! They're weeds!

Seriously, they are pretty hardy. The kind of roots you want are like those on my zelkova. That zelkova is literally screwed onto the board. It was produced by an air layer, but it didn't have to be. If there is an area on your tree that has small feeder roots all at one level, chop off the bottom just under those roots, set the thing on a tile or piece of wood, and let the roots grow out. You may have to do something to secure the tree in the pot so it doesn't wiggle, until the new roots get going.

Your goal is to get a flat root system. The earlier you start working on this the better. Since you went to the trouble of barerooting, you might as well get that root system started off right.

It was this link that inspired me:

http://bonsaitonight.com/2011/06/10/the-best-repotting-of-the-year/

And this one:

http://bonsaitonight.com/2009/02/14/ebihara/

 

[eolson]

Good to know, I will have to make a trip to the bonsai nursery and see what they have and then get those roots in shape. Thanks for the help

 

[Adair M]

What are you planning on getting from the bonsai nursery?

 

[eolson]

some better soil, sphagnum moss, and lime sulphur for my juniper. any particular recommendations for soil? I know akadama is a good base inorganic along with coarse sand, any thing else? Also any particular recommendations for soil mixes for the trident maple, elm and juniper or should they all have a pretty similar mix? (about 60/40 inorganic/organic from what ive read?)

 

[Adair M]

Well, a mix of akadama, pumice, and lava seem to be popular. You'll notice there's not a drop of organic material in that mix. Akadama holds water. Where are you located, San Francisco? If so, look up Boon Manakitivipart. He advocates the mix I just described. Equal parts of each. Then you use organic fertilizer.

Soil mixes: Everyone has their favorite. Boon's mix is the one he learned to use when studying in Japan. Does that mean it's the only one that works? No, but he knows that the best bonsai in Japan are growing in it. On the other hand, there is someone there at the nursery every day looking after the trees. If they get too dried out, there is someone to water them. If you are going to leave your trees by themselves for several days, you might need to figure out whether you can rig up a watering system, or maybe add something to the soil to retain more moisture, knowing that maybe it's not optimal. Everything is a trade-off.

How was that for a confusing answer? Your question is something along the lines of "What's the best car?" Well, "It depends..."

Generally speaking, your trees will do better with less organics in the soil than with more. This is a hard lesson for most beginners to understand. The word "soil" implies "dirt", or "dark loamy stuff", or "potting soil". The fact is the trees really prefer a more open, rocky substrate.

 

[eolson]

No I am located in Los Angeles. The closest bonsai shop is Yamiguchi Bonsai Nursery. I am working on trying to find a good local group but so far havent found one. It is interesting that the lack of organics is better for the trees. I will see if I cant talk to the owner of the nursery tomorrow and get his input.

 

[JudyB]

You should do a search on this site for threads on soils. They have loads of information, some b**ch fighting, and lots of different opinions... You'll be confused a bit, but at least you'll know what it's all about.

Sounds like you will need a bit of organics as you say you may be gone now and then, unless you can do a watering system (better choice)
In the end, you have to do what works for YOU. But taking the best information and altering it for your circumstances is the way to go.

 

[edprocoat]

Judys advice about doing what works for you is spot on. Trees will grow in just about anything with enough care, I have grown them in colored aquarium gravel with success. The less organics in the mix the more you have to water and fertilize. I would assume in Calif. you would need a timed watering system to keep them unattended during the hot weather.
My trees move with me and are always in the heat, I am working during the daylight hours and inorganic soil completely dries out during the day actually causing my trees stress. I have found for me that a mix of the red lava rock, it looks like this akadama stuff, and some potting soil and composted pine bark fines in equal 1/3 amounts keeps my trees happy all day. It drains well and does not clog up and I can water it in the morning and on a 95 degree summer day in the sun its still a little moist at the drain hole in the evening. That said, trees grown in non organic soils seem to develop much finer roots systems quicker. I think its because they can not grow through the little rocks and have to grow around them. These tees would probably die if left exposed to summer heat for more than a day without a proper timed watering system.

ed

 

[edprocoat]

Just a quick thought, has anyone who uses timed watering drip or misting systems ever put anything together about the intervals used for the watering? I wonder as we know too much water causes root rot. I guess this would have to be constantly monitored for the weather too, in wetter weather either turned off or set to fewer waterings. I would assume the hotter and dryer weather would mean an adjustment for the settings too, as well as windy weather which evaporates water faster would have to have an effect on the timing as well.

This is probably for another thread , sorry!

ed

 

[JudyB]

Just a quick thought, has anyone who uses timed watering drip or misting systems ever put anything together about the intervals used for the watering? I wonder as we know too much water causes root rot. I guess this would have to be constantly monitored for the weather too, in wetter weather either turned off or set to fewer waterings. I would assume the hotter and dryer weather would mean an adjustment for the settings too, as well as windy weather which evaporates water faster would have to have an effect on the timing as well.

This is probably for another thread , sorry!

ed

That is where using a non organic soil is appropriate Ed. You literally can't overwater a plant in complete non organics. Unless for some reason it doesn't drain properly.