Aftercare Forest Structure Styling or Maintenance?

thatguy

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Hello all!

Relative newbie here, but doing a lot of research and learning. Making mistakes fast as they say but trying to gather up as much knowledge as possible. Going to be attempting two forest plantings one with trident maples and one with Japanese maples (both roughly 2yr old seedlings). There is a fair amount of information out there on how to create the initial design/planting. Both in blog form, videos, and also in the excellent book Forest, Rock, and Ezo Spruce Bonsai by Saburo Kato. One piece of the puzzle I don't have yet is after the planting occurs and when new growth happens...how do you prune for optimal shape?

The basics of removing crossing branches, keeping the interior branches to a minimum, exterior trees get exterior branches makes sense to me. But I've yet to see any solid progression or maintenance discussions on these forest plantings 1, 2, 3+ years along. How to ensure that the growth is in the optimal direction, getting branch taper and movement, etc. Maybe this is something I'll have to learn and experiment with myself which is fine! But I always appreciate a little leg up when I can! ;)

Thanks in advance for the help! This site has already been a great source of knowledge.

Cheers
thatguy
 

Shibui

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Basic group pruning is much the same as for other trees. Pruning causes new buds to grow into new shoots which creates ramification. Prune back to suitable buds which will mean the new shoots grow in the desired direction is a fundamental pruning skill in bonsai, garden, orchard or landscape. Then prune or wire to get the correct direction and prune to remove shoots in the wrong spots.
I often hedge prune my groups and multi trunk trees but I also check regularly for wayward shoots that grow up through the branches. Leaving some of those on all summer can unduly thicken the wrong branches.
Getting branch taper in groups is exactly the same as getting branch taper in single trunk trees. Prune back to suitable side shoots and wire those as a new terminal. Winter pruning is the time when you can really see the structure so you can remove the thicker shoots at the ends and thin out to get better flow in the structure. Try for 2x2 structure wherever possible. Bar shoots on branches are just as bad as bar branches on the trunk so remove extras wherever possible as soon as possible.
JM are prone to many shoots after pruning. It is imperative to remove any extras as soon as possible as JM are really prone to over thickening when many shoots grow close together. Look right into the structure regularly through summer to spot any before they cause problems.
 

sorce

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There was a thread I had a misunderstanding in that ended up showing a few well maintained forests like this.

They were pretty impressive.

Within your clusters, you won't have branches going inward, so you essentially treat all x amount of trunks as one. Allowing branches to eminate from the group, same as if it were a single trunk.

Sorce
 

thatguy

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Basic group pruning is much the same as for other trees. Pruning causes new buds to grow into new shoots which creates ramification. Prune back to suitable buds which will mean the new shoots grow in the desired direction is a fundamental pruning skill in bonsai, garden, orchard or landscape. Then prune or wire to get the correct direction and prune to remove shoots in the wrong spots.
I often hedge prune my groups and multi trunk trees but I also check regularly for wayward shoots that grow up through the branches. Leaving some of those on all summer can unduly thicken the wrong branches.
Getting branch taper in groups is exactly the same as getting branch taper in single trunk trees. Prune back to suitable side shoots and wire those as a new terminal. Winter pruning is the time when you can really see the structure so you can remove the thicker shoots at the ends and thin out to get better flow in the structure. Try for 2x2 structure wherever possible. Bar shoots on branches are just as bad as bar branches on the trunk so remove extras wherever possible as soon as possible.
JM are prone to many shoots after pruning. It is imperative to remove any extras as soon as possible as JM are really prone to over thickening when many shoots grow close together. Look right into the structure regularly through summer to spot any before they cause problems.

Appreciate the thoughtful and detailed reply! Will keep this in mind as my forests progress and the profusion of growth happens in the spring/summer! Seems like a reasonable and easy to follow approach.

There was a thread I had a misunderstanding in that ended up showing a few well maintained forests like this.

They were pretty impressive.

Within your clusters, you won't have branches going inward, so you essentially treat all x amount of trunks as one. Allowing branches to eminate from the group, same as if it were a single trunk.

Sorce

Hey Sorce! Treating the trunks as one tree is a good way to look at it. I'm all for helpful mental models that are shortcuts to thinking too hard. Cheers
 

LanceMac10

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I've not had great success with Tridents up here. Good luck and share some photos.
 

thatguy

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I've not had great success with Tridents up here. Good luck and share some photos.
Nashua eh! Howdy neighbor, in Manchester here. What seems to be the trouble with tridents for you up here? Too cold or just not terribly suitable? I'm toying with the idea of amur maples and field maples too. In addition to the usual suspects of tridents and japanese maples. The tris I got very inexpensively as they were neglected seedlings. Figure a good first go for a big forest planting. Will see what happens. The larger trident on the bench, will see what comes of it! Both were growing up here in NH. Definitely will share pics!
 

LanceMac10

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Take care to keep them dormant during the inevitable week in February that's far too warm....because you still have nearly two months of freeze danger. It snowed in May this year!
 

thatguy

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Take care to keep them dormant during the inevitable week in February that's far too warm....because you still have nearly two months of freeze danger. It snowed in May this year!

We have had some wild winter weather the last year or two. In that the temps are all over the place and reliable snow pack seems a thing of the past!
 

leatherback

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With your 2 y.o. maples.. What sort of forest are you planning? I sometimes see very dense forests with 50+ singular stems made of seedlings. And I know of larger forests, where a modest number of mature trees are brought together.
 

thatguy

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With your 2 y.o. maples.. What sort of forest are you planning? I sometimes see very dense forests with 50+ singular stems made of seedlings. And I know of larger forests, where a modest number of mature trees are brought together.

I've attached a few pics of forests I am hoping to replicate from Saburo Kato's forest planting book. Along with some scribbles of my own as I try to plan out in advance my tree placement. Still have a few weeks before it is late enough to attempt it. Plenty of time to ponder! Fortunately, I was able to pick up 5 much smaller seedlings to help create the illusion of depth and age. I think I have ... around 20-22 tridents to use if needed. Large mesh propagation trays and soil are ready. I know you can add/substract and remake forests after the planting but I hope to get it somewhat "right" from the get go.

With the japanese maples I have coming it will be a more modest 7 or so grouping. Hopefully mounding slightly in center with trees arching outwards a bit gracefully.

20200828_135432.jpg
20200828_135439.jpg
20200828_140151.jpg
20200828_135452.jpg
 

thatguy

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Wait until spring.

Not bad advice for sure! And I've read a lot of conflicting info on that point. Leaning toward Fall based on advice of the grower. In theory energy should be in the roots at that time, doing minimal root work, putting them into the planting should not hinder the trees much once they are sliding into dormancy. But, Spring before bud break is also a great time too. Probably like most things it comes down to the health of the trees prior to the work and the quality of care after. Always happy to hear advice, even if conflicting!
 

leatherback

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wait till 2025...

Growing a good bonsai forest starts with getting the elements right. It is a lot harder to get a good range of trunk sizes while planted together. What it sounds like is that you have a whole bunch of very similar seedlings. I would spend a few years developing these for the forest, tbh.
 

thatguy

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wait till 2025...

Growing a good bonsai forest starts with getting the elements right. It is a lot harder to get a good range of trunk sizes while planted together. What it sounds like is that you have a whole bunch of very similar seedlings. I would spend a few years developing these for the forest, tbh.

I do like that bonsai pushes me to learn the value of patience and time. But I've got caliper ranging from a 1/8th up to a bit over 1/2". If I let the few primary trees run away, keep the smaller 1/8 and 1/4 pruned. I think that should allow it to grow together while gaining taper. Or would you still advise growing them out individually? That is a lot of pots to manage!

Edit: I already can picture looking back on these posts with chagrin in later years going "I wish I would have listened but I needed to learn the hard way sometimes"
 

Adair M

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Wait until spring.

when starting forest deciduous trees, you need to trim the roots back considerably in order to place them close to each other. Bare rooting is the way to go.

spring.
 

leatherback

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I do like that bonsai pushes me to learn the value of patience and time. But I've got caliper ranging from a 1/8th up to a bit over 1/2". If I let the few primary trees run away, keep the smaller 1/8 and 1/4 pruned. I think that should allow it to grow together while gaining taper. Or would you still advise growing them out individually? That is a lot of pots to manage!

Edit: I already can picture looking back on these posts with chagrin in later years going "I wish I would have listened but I needed to learn the hard way sometimes"

I put this forest together last spring. Oldest tree is 30+ years. The youngest 2 years...

20200410-R14A3338-194.jpg

Put it together. Learn from it. Give this one away. in a few years make another one
I know that I was annoyed with my first forest because the trees really were too similar.
 

LanceMac10

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bonsai.jpg

bonsai2.jpg

Tall and slender has it's place. You'll just need A LOT to choose from!!

Potted plants are strengthening roots and readying for dormancy. As mentioned by @Adair M , to properly execute a convincing forest planting, some major root work is necessary to situate certain elements very close.
 

thatguy

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I put this forest together last spring. Oldest tree is 30+ years. The youngest 2 years...

Put it together. Learn from it. Give this one away. in a few years make another one
I know that I was annoyed with my first forest because the trees really were too similar.

Gorgeous photo! And forest too. I can certainly see how the bark characteristics lend so much to the overall appearance. Not to mention caliper. I can dig that not every tree at the outset will be a winner. But to wait 5 years before trying will also not provide the ample amount of learning I'm seeking. So your approach here seems to make sense!

Wait until spring.

when starting forest deciduous trees, you need to trim the roots back considerably in order to place them close to each other. Bare rooting is the way to go.

spring.

Spring... I do hear this advice and take it to heart. I'm probably overestimating my abilities twenty fold, but I think if I root prune only carefully for fitment, have vitamin b1 for them during the process. It may be pulled off in fall. The trees may not be as vigorous next year but, would survive and then come to thrive. Since the sum of the trees monetarily was only $50 it may be worth the experience and possible admonishment from mother nature to never attempt such a thing again.

Tall and slender has it's place. You'll just need A LOT to choose from!!

Potted plants are strengthening roots and readying for dormancy. As mentioned by @Adair M , to properly execute a convincing forest planting, some major root work is necessary to situate certain elements very close.

I'd be chasing the branching down on some of them for sure over time. But those examples aren't too bad! One I found for part of the aesthetic in the JM group would be the below.
image.png
 

leatherback

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but I think if I root prune only carefully for fitment, have vitamin b1 for them during the process. It may be pulled off in fall. The trees may not be as vigorous next year but, would survive and then come to thrive.
You will by working the roots, trigger the plant in slowing down on dormancy. IF you put this together in fall, be prepared to keep it frost-free or risk loosing trees. As it adds NOTHING to the development next year, why not wait till spring!?

! One I found for part of the aesthetic in the JM group would be the below
Yeah.. I doubt you will get to this. Once planted as a forest, development of trunks will slow down dramatically

But to wait 5 years before trying will also not provide the ample amount of learning I'm seeking.
Absolutely! So put one together. Bt maybe also put a few trees in place to have a range for the next attempt
 

thatguy

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You will by working the roots, trigger the plant in slowing down on dormancy. IF you put this together in fall, be prepared to keep it frost-free or risk loosing trees. As it adds NOTHING to the development next year, why not wait till spring!?


Yeah.. I doubt you will get to this. Once planted as a forest, development of trunks will slow down dramatically


Absolutely! So put one together. Bt maybe also put a few trees in place to have a range for the next attempt

Alright alright I think this is the KO. Where is the white flag emoji? Haha I'll focus on feeding the trees this fall, getting them healthy, setting up for a successful spring forest setup.

But I want you all to know whenever I am moving around 25 individual pots I'll be grumbling under my breath about it!
 
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