Air layer in the wild

[Frozentreehugger]

Has anyone tried a air layer in the wild . Not in the back yard . But at a sight hard to access like a remote Yamadori sight . My interest is in possible medium other than moss . For moisture retention . And or a wick inside a tube ( to keep it dry) other end in a plastic bottle of water . All I have so far Idea is for a non retrievable Yamadori. . Or a piece of a tree dwarfed like a Yamadori . Main concern is of course. Keeping the bag from getting dry . In harsh conditions and or time . Any ideas or thoughts successes or failures

 

[Hack Yeah!]

What type of trees are you trying to layer? I think moss is going to be your best medium to retain moisture, not sure why you don't want to use it? I soak peat moss overnight to thoroughly saturate it before wrapping it around my deciduous layers. I don't have to water it for the 6-8 weeks my maples generally take to root.

 

[Lorax7]

You just joined this site a week ago. So, unless you're a grizzled old bonsai veteran with many years of experience at bonsai who just happened to recently discover the magic of the Internet because your grandkids finally showed you how to get online.... just don't. Leave the tree where it is. Stick around and learn first (for several years) before you even consider trying to collect this yamadori.

Odds are that this "non retrievable yamadori", if it's really cool looking material, is a really old tree and the tree's age greatly reduces the chances of success with an air layer. There are also species that typically do not layer well (if at all). Pines, for example, are known to be quite difficult to layer. There are ethical and legal considerations surrounding collecting trees from the wild. You need to know what those legalities are and be aware of how your actions affect the perception of the hobby by the general population and by relevant organizations (BLM, U.S. Forest Service, etc.) that have decision-making power to grant or deny permits for tree collection. It only takes one rogue collector to rub the wrong official the wrong way and permanently screw up collecting for everyone by convincing that official that issuing permits is not worth the administrative headache or creates a "tragedy of the commons" situation that conflicts with their natural resource management duties. You only get one shot to get this right, so have patience, learn the horticulture first, practice on less precious material (nursery stock) first, and get the necessary permits/permission before you do anything.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

You just joined this site a week ago. So, unless you're a grizzled old bonsai veteran with many years of experience at bonsai who just happened to recently discover the magic of the Internet because your grandkids finally showed you how to get online.... just don't. Leave the tree where it is. Stick around and learn first (for several years) before you even consider trying to collect this yamadori.

Odds are that this "non retrievable yamadori", if it's really cool looking material, is a really old tree and the tree's age greatly reduces the chances of success with an air layer. There are also species that typically do not layer well (if at all). Pines, for example, are known to be quite difficult to layer. There are ethical and legal considerations surrounding collecting trees from the wild. You need to know what those legalities are and be aware of how your actions affect the perception of the hobby by the general population and by relevant organizations (BLM, U.S. Forest Service, etc.) that have decision-making power to grant or deny permits for tree collection. It only takes one rogue collector to rub the wrong official the wrong way and permanently screw up collecting for everyone by convincing that official that issuing permits is not worth the administrative headache or creates a "tragedy of the commons" situation that conflicts with their natural resource management duties. You only get one shot to get this right, so have patience, learn the horticulture first, practice on less precious material (nursery stock) first, and get the necessary permits/permission before you do anything

You just joined this site a week ago. So, unless you're a grizzled old bonsai veteran with many years of experience at bonsai who just happened to recently discover the magic of the Internet because your grandkids finally showed you how to get online.... just don't. Leave the tree where it is. Stick around and learn first (for several years) before you even consider trying to collect this yamadori.

Odds are that this "non retrievable yamadori", if it's really cool looking material, is a really old tree and the tree's age greatly reduces the chances of success with an air layer. There are also species that typically do not layer well (if at all). Pines, for example, are known to be quite difficult to layer. There are ethical and legal considerations surrounding collecting trees from the wild. You need to know what those legalities are and be aware of how your actions affect the perception of the hobby by the general population and by relevant organizations (BLM, U.S. Forest Service, etc.) that have decision-making power to grant or deny permits for tree collection. It only takes one rogue collector to rub the wrong official the wrong way and permanently screw up collecting for everyone by convincing that official that issuing permits is not worth the administrative headache or creates a "tragedy of the commons" situation that conflicts with their natural resource management duties. You only get one shot to get this right, so have patience, learn the horticulture first, practice on less precious material (nursery stock) first, and get the necessary permits/permission before you do anything.

I fully understand your concern . I would like to think I’m not that old at least no grandkids yet . I started I. Bonsai 22 years ago . I was at one time on the executive of the Ottawa bonsai society in. Ontario Canada . I did take a break from the addiction for almost 10 years . Or at least greatly reduced the number of trees I have and did not start any new projects . I restarted last summer . I am not a huge social media person but joined this group to see what was new and going on . In hindsight I get your concern the trees I am referring to 1 is a Common juniper Juniperus Communis Needle juniper growing out of a rock on the shore of a small lake . Not sure of the age but I don’t think it’s that old but you never know I know the land owner and have permission most people here consider it a weed . But it is kind of interesting with some deadwood and a bit of a rare single trunk upright form not even sure it’s still there no reason it should not be but have not seen it in 4 years . The other trees are Quercia Alba white oak . They are a group of about 15 trees on a rock cliff most or all of them are growing out of cracks and are way to big anyway . A bunch of 3 to 4 feet wide trunks . But there in a windy location. . Was thinking There are lots of old bark branches with nice movement . A branch would make a nice tree . I do not know the owner yet . Trying to track that down located the person that owns the land adjacent it . It’s been inherited and not sure if location of owner . Adjacent guy said be no problem with the parents but there is no way I would proceed with out land owners permission . I also started this thread thinking others may be interested thinking as you know . Good collectable trees need to be A legal and B collectable thought it might open up some ideas for people on legal ground . I did not mean to offend any one . I fully understand your response I admit I have very little experience with air layering. Hope that re assures you I would not do any thing that would reflect badly on Bonsai . Or especially ethical and legal collection

 

[ShadyStump]

I did my first air layer this past summer, and used burlap wrapped in plastic. It stayed damp enough for the roots to set for a couple months, all on it's own. It'll be hell to get the roots out of the burlap, but it worked well otherwise. First winter for the new tree, so we'll see how it went for real here soon.

I understand your predicament. Some of the best trees I've found are in difficult to get to spots out in the sticks, so there's no way I could check on them routinely.
If you wrap the girdle and rooting medium tightly in plastic and it stays undisturbed it should hold moisture for a rather long time.

 

[Lorax7]

12 years doing bonsai probably qualifies you as a grizzled veteran, even if perhaps not an old one (at least not old enough to have grandkids).

I'm relieved. When I first read your post and saw that your account on the site was brand new, I had visions of an enthusiastic bonsai greenhorn rushing off to try to air layer some 500-year-old Bristlecone pine in a national forest (with no permit) as their very first attempt at air layering after having seen one air layering tutorial video on YouTube. We get a lot of first posts around here that are basically newbies desperately begging for help to fix problems that could've easily been avoided if they'd asked first before doing some ill-advised work on their tree.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

12 years doing bonsai probably qualifies you as a grizzled veteran, even if perhaps not an old one (at least not old enough to have grandkids).

I'm relieved. When I first read your post and saw that your account on the site was brand new, I had visions of an enthusiastic bonsai greenhorn rushing off to try to air layer some 500-year-old Bristlecone pine in a national forest (with no permit) as their very first attempt at air layering after having seen one air layering tutorial video on YouTube. We get a lot of first posts around here that are basically newbies desperately begging for help to fix problems that could've easily been avoided if they'd asked first before doing some ill-advised work on their tree.

I understand when I reread my post I was like . Yep I see why he got that idea . But I don’t know about veteran does that mean do I still know how to kill trees . I see we actually don’t live that far apart . Let me guess it’s still winter there .

 

[Frozentreehugger]

I did my first air layer this past summer, and used burlap wrapped in plastic. It stayed damp enough for the roots to set for a couple months, all on it's own. It'll be hell to get the roots out of the burlap, but it worked well otherwise. First winter for the new tree, so we'll see how it went for real here soon.

I understand your predicament. Some of the best trees I've found are in difficult to get to spots out in the sticks, so there's no way I could check on them routinely.
If you wrap the girdle and rooting medium tightly in plastic and it stays undisturbed it should hold moisture for a rather long time. I am basically trying to come up with a safety net . Murphy’s law will kick in and if you have to get there during a hot spell you won’t be able to . Still think there is something there to the wick idea . Air layer gets dry wick is wet access to water in a bottle . Just not sure the moss will pull it in . That’s why the change the medium idea . But miss is known to work . May have to experiment close to home . See if the capillary idea will work .

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Sorry meant to reply not just add to yours I’m such a noob

 

[Lorax7]

Yeah, winter is still hanging on for a while, although the weather was at least tolerable enough outside this weekend for me to assemble one of those cedar plank elevated garden beds in the back yard. I'm planting a bunch of seeds this year: coastal redwood, JRP, JBP, foxtail pine. I figure once the seedlings are big enough, I'll plant them in the garden bed to get some of the benefits of ground growing without killing my lumbar spine.

 

[ShadyStump]

Sorry meant to reply not just add to yours I’m such a noob

It's cool. You'd be surprised how often it happens.

The concept seems sound, just depends on the material you use for the wick, and whether it's more susceptible to drying out than the air layer.
I agree: a test run at home may be a good idea.

 

[RKatzin]

There is a product that might suit your needs. I am however, that old and it's been quite a few years since I've used it myself and the best I can recall is aqua-gel. It's a pelletized product that absorbs like three hundred times it's weight in water and stays wet a long time. It was great for doing remote gardens with limited water supply.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Yeah, winter is still hanging on for a while, although the weather was at least tolerable enough outside this weekend for me to assemble one of those cedar plank elevated garden beds in the back yard. I'm planting a bunch of seeds this year: coastal redwood, JRP, JBP, foxtail pine. I figure once the seedlings are big enough, I'll plant them in the garden bed to get some of the benefits of ground growing without killing my lumbar spine.

What zone are you . Solid 4 here starting some JRP for first time . JBP won’t make it have some migra and Scot’s going but just since last year . Gave a bunch of scot away when I stoped wish I had them back . Always wanted JWP but could never find a source . Maybe better know . Can’t get seeds ( covid) a bunch of suppliers in USA can’t ship to Canada noticed Canada Bonsai is planning to have some JWP grafted to Pinus strobes . That might be interesting and avail to me but I would like seeds also

 

[19Mateo83]

Has anyone tried a air layer in the wild . Not in the back yard . But at a sight hard to access like a remote Yamadori sight . My interest is in possible medium other than moss . For moisture retention . And or a wick inside a tube ( to keep it dry) other end in a plastic bottle of water . All I have so far Idea is for a non retrievable Yamadori. . Or a piece of a tree dwarfed like a Yamadori . Main concern is of course. Keeping the bag from getting dry . In harsh conditions and or time . Any ideas or thoughts successes or failures

Long fiber sphagnum moss (orchid moss) is probably going to be your best bet. If your wrap is tight it will hold moisture for a good few months, the tree also helps keep the moisture level up through the girdle. I have had good results using stretch wrap on the small hand held size roll to wrap my air layers. The tighter you wrap it the better it seals to itself.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

There is a product that might suit your needs. I am however, that old and it's been quite a few years since I've used it myself and the best I can recall is aqua-gel. It's a pelletized product that absorbs like three hundred times it's weight in water and stays wet a long time. It was great for doing remote gardens with limited water supply.

Thanks I’ll look into that . May have seen something similar . Road construction here last summer they sprayed a hill side . With what looked like green gel . I stopped and checked it out middle of hottest part of summer . It turned into grass but was jell like for at least a month

 

[Lorax7]

What zone are you . Solid 4 here starting some JRP for first time . JBP won’t make it have some migra and Scot’s going but just since last year . Gave a bunch of scot away when I stoped wish I had them back . Always wanted JWP but could never find a source . Maybe better know . Can’t get seeds ( covid) a bunch of suppliers in USA can’t ship to Canada noticed Canada Bonsai is planning to have some JWP grafted to Pinus strobes . That might be interesting and avail to me but I would like seeds also

5b or maybe 6, depending on what website you ask.

I also thought about growing some JWP from seed, but my understanding is that it’s a finicky species to start from seed, so I opted to just get 5 bareroot seedlings from Johnsteen’s and call that good enough. I planted 4 of the 5 with the intention of developing as exposed root style and planted the fifth conventionally.

 

[19Mateo83]

Thanks I’ll look into that . May have seen something similar . Road construction here last summer they sprayed a hill side . With what looked like green gel . I stopped and checked it out middle of hottest part of summer . It turned into grass but was jell like for at least a month

i think they call that “hydro seeding”. It’s a slurry of grass seed and fibers they spray on instead of seed and straw.

 

[Potawatomi13]

One big concern with Oak. As you say "old" bark. Not normally good prospect for air layering would likely just kill branch layered. Younger sprouts/smooth bark normal best prospects.

 

[Frozentreehugger]

One big concern with Oak. As you say "old" bark. Not normally good prospect for air layering would likely just kill branch layered. Younger sprouts/smooth bark normal best prospects.

That’s the concern and reason to try and get as much in your favour as possible . Some have left air layers for multiple seasons . Don’t think that’s a option in zone 4 but a trial run on younger wood would be in order .

i think they call that “hydro seeding”. It’s a slurry of grass seed and fibers they spray on instead of seed and straw.

I have seen Hydro seeding . This was something different . More like a gell that is why I mentioned it . A new product probably

 

[ShadyStump]

There is a product that might suit your needs. I am however, that old and it's been quite a few years since I've used it myself and the best I can recall is aqua-gel. It's a pelletized product that absorbs like three hundred times it's weight in water and stays wet a long time. It was great for doing remote gardens with limited water supply.

Thanks I’ll look into that . May have seen something similar . Road construction here last summer they sprayed a hill side . With what looked like green gel . I stopped and checked it out middle of hottest part of summer . It turned into grass but was jell like for at least a month

Tried looking up aqua-gel, and that's a skin care brand now days.
It does make me think of Orbies, sold as a kids' toy. They behave just as you describe; you get a package of tiny pellets that you soak in water, and they expand exponentially as they absorb it into spherical gel balls. They're made in bright colors that look kinda like candy, but they're supposed to be completely nontoxic.
I'll continue looking into it because they may actually be the same product just aimed for different markets. That means to growing medium may be a different cost than the toy, though the toy maybe more readily available.
I'm very interested now because if these could have incredible applications for bonsai.