Air layering question

pnwnovice

Sapling
Messages
42
Reaction score
57
Location
Port Angeles, WA
USDA Zone
8b
Ok, so I am very new to air layering. I tried it on a cherry tree last year but was unsuccessful (I believe it was mostly due to attempting it at the wrong time of the year). My question is, has anyone ever tried soaking their sphagnum in willow water before packing it around the air layer? Would that have any possibility of increasing success rate? I've heard some people use rooting hormone on their layers, so would the presence of the indolebutyric acid soaked into the moss have any measurable advantage to just soaking the moss in straight water beforehand?
 

Pitoon

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,054
Reaction score
11,467
Location
Southern Maryland
USDA Zone
7b
If you air layered at the wrong......you did it at the wrong time. How old was the branch/trunk you tried it on? Older wood can take up to two seasons to root. Same year growth that has harden off will root in several weeks. You don't need any hormones, but they can accelerate the rooting process.
 

pnwnovice

Sapling
Messages
42
Reaction score
57
Location
Port Angeles, WA
USDA Zone
8b
If you air layered at the wrong......you did it at the wrong time. How old was the branch/trunk you tried it on? Older wood can take up to two seasons to root. Same year growth that has harden off will root in several weeks. You don't need any hormones, but they can accelerate the rooting process.

It was older growth that I was trying to air layer so I'm assuming that was my problem, plus I started it in mid to late fall. I didn't really go into it expecting it to work but was hoping it would take. Hoping to get some going soon on trees I can get permission to air layer.
 

Pitoon

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,054
Reaction score
11,467
Location
Southern Maryland
USDA Zone
7b
It was older growth that I was trying to air layer so I'm assuming that was my problem, plus I started it in mid to late fall. I didn't really go into it expecting it to work but was hoping it would take. Hoping to get some going soon on trees I can get permission to air layer.
I think you would have better success if you take cuttings as soon as they harden off. What type of cherry, ornamental or culinary?
 

BrianBay9

Masterpiece
Messages
2,782
Reaction score
5,552
Location
Fresno, CA
USDA Zone
9
Spring to early summer is when you want to start an air layer. Soaking in willow water might help - unlikely to hurt.
 

pnwnovice

Sapling
Messages
42
Reaction score
57
Location
Port Angeles, WA
USDA Zone
8b
I think you would have better success if you take cuttings as soon as they harden off. What type of cherry, ornamental or culinary?
Culinary, this particular air layering was actually meant to be more for having a cherry tree to plant out in the yard of the house my wife and I had just bought so I was probably also being a bit greedy as well.
 

River's Edge

Masterpiece
Messages
4,750
Reaction score
12,765
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
Ok, so I am very new to air layering. I tried it on a cherry tree last year but was unsuccessful (I believe it was mostly due to attempting it at the wrong time of the year). My question is, has anyone ever tried soaking their sphagnum in willow water before packing it around the air layer? Would that have any possibility of increasing success rate? I've heard some people use rooting hormone on their layers, so would the presence of the indolebutyric acid soaked into the moss have any measurable advantage to just soaking the moss in straight water beforehand?
In order to have an impact on rooting the compound needs to come in contact with the cambium cells that differentiate to become roots. So just being present in the media will likely have little or no effect. Further if one studies the actual response to rooting hormones it is evident that the effect is often minimal at best. Success can often be achieved without the use of rooting hormones. This should be understood in light of the fact that very difficult to root species often respond to customized levels of various rooting hormones. Indolebutyric acid being only one of them. Lots of information available in the research literature, great summary in Dirr, Reference manual of woody plant propagation. He does note that WRS appears to work best in combination with IDBA if the cuttings are soaked in the solution for 24 hours. ( thus taken in by the cambium cells)
Willow extract as one of the newer rooting hormones could likely benefit from further research. This is also supported by Dirr in his discussion that it has been difficult to reproduce the effect consistently.
I think it would be great to experiment with the approach and report your results. The difficulty would be interpreting the results unless a sufficient sample size and comparative samples were also carried out under the same circumstances.
 

Pitoon

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,054
Reaction score
11,467
Location
Southern Maryland
USDA Zone
7b
Culinary, this particular air layering was actually meant to be more for having a cherry tree to plant out in the yard of the house my wife and I had just bought so I was probably also being a bit greedy as well.
You can buy a cherry tree at Home Depot right now for $49 and it'll even give you a few cherries this season. Unless that particular tree has some sentimental value to you both?

If you buy one make sure you get a self pollinating variety, unless you buy two different cultivars to cross pollinate.
 

River's Edge

Masterpiece
Messages
4,750
Reaction score
12,765
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
I've spent two years, 40 hours a week, doing just that in a lab and as a researcher. And I wholeheartedly disagree.
I would be happy to hear the specifics and be pointed towards the research. My understanding is that the general use of rooting hormones makes limited difference. I recognize that specific applications of custom formulae for specific species can make a distinct difference.
 

Wires_Guy_wires

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,459
Reaction score
10,728
Location
Netherlands
IBA, IAA are both very good rooting homones. IAA (indole acetic acid) breaks down fast in open air and exposed to light but it is the most natural auxin you can get. It's also expensive and has a short shelf life. IBA (indole butyric acid) is more stable but has slightly less prominent effects. IAA and IBA both occur in plants, IAA being present in the highest concentration.
NAA (naphtalene acetic acid) is a compound regularly used when IBA/IAA are less effective.
Then there are a bunch of analogues with the same function but less described in literature. Most vegetative propagation papers, reviews and manuals include some rooting hormone. They start being effective at 0.02 mg/L or even lower. For woody plants, the concentration usually has to be a bit higher than that, with some pine (micro)propagation protocols going as high as 20g/L.

I get my IBA at home as a salt formulation with potassium. IBA-K. This salt is less effective than regular IBA because the potassium has some effects on the stability, but it's easier to dissolve in water without having to use HCl.
I have tubes of frozen NAA dissolved in KOH that I can use for whatever needs rooting.
Mix with water and apply as a foliar or contact-spray or soak the medium with it. Contact with open tissue causes the plant to easily absorb it. Some papers state that it takes less than 15 minutes for an actively growing plant to suck the auxins out of a solution.

Brands like Clonex have pretty high strength rooting gels, going up to 3g/L. Mix some of that with water and spray the foliage on a branch, you'll probably notice it'll behave differently. I use stuff like this as a rooting paint, instead of rooting powder that has dessicating properties; good for closing wounds, but bad for biological processes that are water bound.

The effect of rooting hormones are based on the plants genetic make up: some plants are very reactive, others need higher strength applications. Some plants respond to IBA, others to NAA. This response can change over time due to over exposure, so it might be good to use both and switch them every round of layering/taking cuttings from cuttings.

I base my concentrations on literature ("propagation of *plant name*" or "root formation *plant name*", "in vitro propagation of *plant name*", "induction of root *plant name*")
in general, the rule is as follows for all plants that share a common ancestor:

Low dose - increased rooting response, more roots overall compared to controls, more adventitious rooting (branching roots), small effect on shoot length and internode space.

Moderate dose - increased rooting response, more roots overall, visible effect on shoot length and internode space, can affect growth pattern in the sense that everything starts growing, higher biological activity due to cells being triggered to grow. Adventitious shoot/bud growth can be affected; both excitation (waking dormant buds) and inhibition (keeping them asleep) can occur. This is what happens in spring naturally.

High dose - sometimes an explosion of roots, sometimes total inhibition of rooting. Cell elongation is a fact, shoots might show giant internode spaces, foliage might be weaker and the plant might skip dormancy. Less budding, fewer adventitous shoots, and growth is focussed on the apex. High use of carbohydrates and resources due to increased growth activity. Lasts for about a month or two.

Extreme dose - total inhibition of rooting, stunted growth, shoots and other tissue expand so much that turgor pressure isn't enough to keep them upright. Callusses may occur at random spots. This might have lasting damage (4+ years).

Not every plant needs rooting hormones to root. I've tried to prove that the effects of auxins were minimal if the nutrient, vitamin and carbohydrate levels were met. I proved myself wrong. Rooting did occur in both trial groups, but the one with hormones performed faster, restored faster from injury, and showed an overall higher biological activity. The highest difference in rooting came down to roughly '500% more roots' in the treated group. Initially shoot growth was of lower quality, but after two weeks those effects diminished.

If there's something I haven't covered, feel free to ask.
 

leatherback

The Treedeemer
Messages
14,046
Reaction score
27,356
Location
Northern Germany
USDA Zone
7
If there's something I haven't covered, feel free to ask.
Any thoughts on cork bark pine rooting strategies? I picked a grafted one up at the Trophy this weekend and it has many 3-way splits. I am keep to try and get some of them on their own roots going. (Naturally, if you have a setup that would work, be happy to discuss doing this together ;) )
 

Wires_Guy_wires

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,459
Reaction score
10,728
Location
Netherlands
Any thoughts on cork bark pine rooting strategies? I picked a grafted one up at the Trophy this weekend and it has many 3-way splits. I am keep to try and get some of them on their own roots going. (Naturally, if you have a setup that would work, be happy to discuss doing this together ;) )

Keep the root nematodes at bay, I'm dealing with a load of those for the past few years. They eat calussing tissue. That's the first pointer.
I assume you're talking about Japanese black pine with cork bark, so let's have a look:

So in vitro, those plants don't need roots to grow. They respond to IBA. If memory serves me right, JBP love high strength rooting hormones. I can mail you some test tubes with varying strengths that you can use. But I'll look into this some more this evening.
 

Tulsabonsigh

Shohin
Messages
259
Reaction score
176
IBA, IAA are both very good rooting homones. IAA (indole acetic acid) breaks down fast in open air and exposed to light but it is the most natural auxin you can get. It's also expensive and has a short shelf life. IBA (indole butyric acid) is more stable but has slightly less prominent effects. IAA and IBA both occur in plants, IAA being present in the highest concentration.
NAA (naphtalene acetic acid) is a compound regularly used when IBA/IAA are less effective.
Then there are a bunch of analogues with the same function but less described in literature. Most vegetative propagation papers, reviews and manuals include some rooting hormone. They start being effective at 0.02 mg/L or even lower. For woody plants, the concentration usually has to be a bit higher than that, with some pine (micro)propagation protocols going as high as 20g/L.

I get my IBA at home as a salt formulation with potassium. IBA-K. This salt is less effective than regular IBA because the potassium has some effects on the stability, but it's easier to dissolve in water without having to use HCl.
I have tubes of frozen NAA dissolved in KOH that I can use for whatever needs rooting.
Mix with water and apply as a foliar or contact-spray or soak the medium with it. Contact with open tissue causes the plant to easily absorb it. Some papers state that it takes less than 15 minutes for an actively growing plant to suck the auxins out of a solution.

Brands like Clonex have pretty high strength rooting gels, going up to 3g/L. Mix some of that with water and spray the foliage on a branch, you'll probably notice it'll behave differently. I use stuff like this as a rooting paint, instead of rooting powder that has dessicating properties; good for closing wounds, but bad for biological processes that are water bound.

The effect of rooting hormones are based on the plants genetic make up: some plants are very reactive, others need higher strength applications. Some plants respond to IBA, others to NAA. This response can change over time due to over exposure, so it might be good to use both and switch them every round of layering/taking cuttings from cuttings.

I base my concentrations on literature ("propagation of *plant name*" or "root formation *plant name*", "in vitro propagation of *plant name*", "induction of root *plant name*")
in general, the rule is as follows for all plants that share a common ancestor:

Low dose - increased rooting response, more roots overall compared to controls, more adventitious rooting (branching roots), small effect on shoot length and internode space.

Moderate dose - increased rooting response, more roots overall, visible effect on shoot length and internode space, can affect growth pattern in the sense that everything starts growing, higher biological activity due to cells being triggered to grow. Adventitious shoot/bud growth can be affected; both excitation (waking dormant buds) and inhibition (keeping them asleep) can occur. This is what happens in spring naturally.

High dose - sometimes an explosion of roots, sometimes total inhibition of rooting. Cell elongation is a fact, shoots might show giant internode spaces, foliage might be weaker and the plant might skip dormancy. Less budding, fewer adventitous shoots, and growth is focussed on the apex. High use of carbohydrates and resources due to increased growth activity. Lasts for about a month or two.

Extreme dose - total inhibition of rooting, stunted growth, shoots and other tissue expand so much that turgor pressure isn't enough to keep them upright. Callusses may occur at random spots. This might have lasting damage (4+ years).

Not every plant needs rooting hormones to root. I've tried to prove that the effects of auxins were minimal if the nutrient, vitamin and carbohydrate levels were met. I proved myself wrong. Rooting did occur in both trial groups, but the one with hormones performed faster, restored faster from injury, and showed an overall higher biological activity. The highest difference in rooting came down to roughly '500% more roots' in the treated group. Initially shoot growth was of lower quality, but after two weeks those effects diminished.

If there's something I haven't covered, feel free to ask.

my favorite research is where the hypothesis is proven wrong! It proves there’s no validation confirmation bias. Thanks so much!
 
Top Bottom