Airlayering Arakawa main trunk to remove grafted rootstock?

Shirikatsu

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Apologies if this question has been asked before. I can only find questions about vanilla air layering Arakawa Maples.

I've found a few sources of Arakawa pre-bonsai that have established root bases but there's a very clear line between the non-Arakawa root stock and the graft point where the craggy bark starts to appear.

I like to think that it would be possible to simply take an airlayer (or ground layer for that matter) of the entire main trunk just above the supposed graft point but I'm sure this is a risky exercise.

Has anyone done this before? Is this at all possible without killing the entire tree?

Thanks all!
 

Warpig

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Yea should be able to air/ground layer it easy. Any chance of any pictures? It would help you get alot better advise.
 

Dav4

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Arakawa grow just fine on their own roots, so air layering a grafted tree destined to be bonsai is a great idea. I’ve actually got a few youngish arakawa grafts that will likely get the treatment next spring. I’ve never layered an older, grafted arakawa trunk but I’ve done so with other grafted palmatum cultivars with great success.
 

Pitoon

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The arakawa trunk will produce roots if the trunk is still green. Chances are slim to none if it has already produced the rough bark.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Apologies if this question has been asked before. I can only find questions about vanilla air layering Arakawa Maples.

I've found a few sources of Arakawa pre-bonsai that have established root bases but there's a very clear line between the non-Arakawa root stock and the graft point where the craggy bark starts to appear.

I like to think that it would be possible to simply take an airlayer (or ground layer for that matter) of the entire main trunk just above the supposed graft point but I'm sure this is a risky exercise.

Has anyone done this before? Is this at all possible without killing the entire tree?

Thanks all!
Yes, I have successfully air-layered arakawa JM on several occasions. They're easy, just find a good spot on the tree, start it in the spring and it should be ready to separate by early fall.
Here is one done in 2010, and the shot before I sold it in 2015:
8850B3FC-7C42-4CCF-8659-0904EFB42EDF.jpeg6E5620FA-53E9-4A1C-8E18-6D81B7E17CA5.jpegB6879BD7-4619-4185-AE6E-E7E54D6DE4BF.jpeg
296388E2-A0E7-41C4-9952-BC0572B44ECE.jpeg
And another layer done around the same time, these photos are from 2015 and 2019. This one is being grown slowly in a bonsai pot. I don’t care if it takes 20 years, but it’s going to have gnarly bark and graceful everything else. Most of the branches you see in the bottom photo have been grafted on.
9B4EA071-B94A-445D-9C66-C0CC8D4E4DDF.jpeg
5A1726F3-2147-422C-8F5E-6AFBB557BDAC.jpeg
 
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Warpig

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Yes, I have successfully air-layered arakawa JM on several occasions. They're easy, just find a good spot on the tree, start it in the spring and it should be ready to separate by early fall.
Here is one done in 2010, and the shot before I sold it in 2015:
View attachment 263502View attachment 263503View attachment 263504
View attachment 263507
And another layer done around the same time, these photos are from 2015 and 2019. This one is being grown slowly in a bonsai pot. I don’t care if it takes 20 years, but it’s going to have gnarly bark and graceful everything else:
View attachment 263508
View attachment 263506
Good way to show the progress. I love that tree the base turned i too.
 

Paulpash

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If you want lots of plants Arakawa roots easily from cuttings too so that's an option. Semi hardwood 4-6 inch long taken in May and planted in Akadama, lava and a little moler covered with a propagator dome, no bottom heat.

IMG_20190801_143814.jpg
 

namnhi

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I did one a few months ago. It didn't send out root for a couple months. Didn't bridge but no root. I went back and recut and put a little rooting hormone on... I see roots in a couple weeks after. Will probably separate next week. This is a trunk layer.
IMG_20190622_075645.jpgIMG_20190802_203644.jpgIMG_20190830_193917.jpgIMG_20190921_101319.jpg
 

Shirikatsu

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Thanks for all your responses guys!

I should have been a bit more specific on the question.The air/ground layer I'm supposing would be done right above the nebari where the smooth bark root stock meets the rough bark trunk of the arakawa.

The arakawa trunk will produce roots if the trunk is still green. Chances are slim to none if it has already produced the rough bark.
Would it not be possible to scrape away the rough bark and do the layer all the same?
 

Dav4

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Thanks for all your responses guys!

I should have been a bit more specific on the question.The air/ground layer I'm supposing would be done right above the nebari where the smooth bark root stock meets the rough bark trunk of the arakawa.



Would it not be possible to scrape away the rough bark and do the layer all the same?
Doesn’t change a thing... go ahead with the layer just above the graft next spring. It’ll be fine.
 

sorce

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Sure it's a graft and not a previous soil line?

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce
 
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is there a better success rate to airlayer instead of grow from cuttings with arakawa? I plan on doing one of those to the upper half of this arakawa I picked up at BB barns this past April. 20190731_015058.jpg
 

Pitoon

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is there a better success rate to airlayer instead of grow from cuttings with arakawa? I plan on doing one of those to the upper half of this arakawa I picked up at BB barns this past April. View attachment 263954
When you air layer you are putting all your eggs in one basket.... hoping that all goes well. When taking cuttings you statistically improve your success rate becuase you usually do multiple cuttings at one time.

The trade off.....an air layer can produce a tree the size it would take a cutting several years to grow. Cuttings will give you more trees, but they will be a lot smaller and take time to grow out.

So.....You prefer 1 tree that is bigger or multiple trees that are smaller?
 

0soyoung

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It seems to frequently happen that cultivars will ground layer by simply keeping the union moist. You could try simply 'wrapping' a pot of substrate around the union or covering it with the conventional plastic bag of sphagnum. In two or three years you may have enough roots to remove the root stock (or render it invisible). On the other hand this might not work and you just wind up with an older and bigger grafted tree, but the process doesn't risk losing the tree like girdling the trunk does.
 
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When you air layer you are putting all your eggs in one basket.... hoping that all goes well. When taking cuttings you statistically improve your success rate becuase you usually do multiple cuttings at one time.

The trade off.....an air layer can produce a tree the size it would take a cutting several years to grow. Cuttings will give you more trees, but they will be a lot smaller and take time to grow out.

So.....You prefer 1 tree that is bigger or multiple trees that are smaller?
I am trying to keep my number of bonsai limited since I live in an apartment, so right now I truly only want 1 arakawa but that one has an unsightly graft mark on it that may or may not go away when the cork bark starts to develop. I also feel that top part is too straight and would be better as a cutting or airlayer
 

0soyoung

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So start with layering that top part.
If it doesn't work you lop it off later and nothing is really lost, but for your belief that you can layer it off its grafted roots.

If it does work, then you optimistically proceed with layering off the grafted root stock. But, should that not work, you will have lost the lower part, but what you set out to achieve (an Arakawa on its own roots) is already done. Goal achieved, though not via the straight line path you envisioned.

And then there is the final possibility that you have two ungrafted Arakawa - then you are really in a pickle :oops:
Heaven forbid 🤣
 
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