airlayering/trunk chopping/ collecting musings

[Joe Dupre']

How different is seperating an air layer from the mother tree mid summer than collecting a tree from the wild? In late spring/early summer here, I airlayered a one year old collected honey locust that had really been vigorous. Last year, it had grown from a stump to a pretty decent tree considering the limited growing time. A little over 2 weeks ago, I seperated the airlayer and planted it in about 85% pine bark and 15% Napa 8822. At the time, I removed all foliage but a few tiny leaves. Fast forward to today and the tree is fully leafed out and thriving. Now the stump I removed it from was just a literal stump.......a little over 2" in diameter and 4" high and completely bare. Today it has one 25" long shoot coming out of the perfect place right at the cut line .

Now, if a seperated airlayer with precious few roots can happily survive and the stump can stand the trunk chop and happily survive, doensn't it seem like collecting and trunk chopping in mid-summer is a viable option? To be sure, honey locust is considered a "weed tree" here and is VERY hardy.

Just thinking.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Before and after. About 18 months from stump to present.

 

[just.wing.it]

doensn't it seem like collecting and trunk chopping in mid-summer is a viable option?

Maybe where you are, for Honey Locust....yours is certainly aggressive!
I always thought this could be a decent species for bonsai, for a compound leaf.

 

[BrianBay9]

The difference between air layer and collecting is that air layers keep water flowing up the tree until enough roots are formed to sustain the layer. Collecting almost always removes a large portion of the roots supplying the tree. Doesn't mean it wont work, but in the heat an air layer is safer in my opinion.

 

[Joe Dupre']

I do like the foliage. It reduces pretty well. It reminds me of the brazilian rain tree.

I collected a huge honey locust a couple of weeks ago also. It was in a place where I feared the road crews were coming in to chop and poison, so I dug it up. It also has more than a dozen shoots emerging, some 4" long. My hunch is aftercare is the priority with trees collected at the "wrong" time of the year. The airlayer, the stump and the newly collected HL were placed in the sun dappled shade for a week or so.

 

[Joe Dupre']

The difference between air layer and collecting is that air layers keep water flowing up the tree until enough roots are formed to sustain the layer. Collecting almost always removes a large portion of the roots supplying the tree. Doesn't mean it wont work, but in the heat an air layer is safer in my opinion.

My point was that, once the airlayer is cut off of the mother tree, it's on it's own with few roots to sustain it.........similar to a collected tree.

 

[Bnana]

When collecting a tree you lose most of the root tips, that's where the action happens.
When separating an air-layer those will be fine. That's a big difference.

 

[jerzyjerzy]

I think there are few differences here.
Firstly, it is you who decides how many roots on the airlayer is enough for a new tree to grow healthy.
Secondly, basically all the roots on the airlayer are active and easily growing new, feeder roots.
Thirdly, the state of a collected tree is (almost) never perfect. There is the whole thing of getting as many feeder roots as possible when collecting which is usually not as successful as we want, and the number of roots is limited, feeder roots are only at the ends of long main roots, etc.

 

[BrianBay9]

My point was that, once the airlayer is cut off of the mother tree, it's on it's own with few roots to sustain it.........similar to a collected tree.

If you wait long enough, you'll get sufficient roots for the part above the layer. I'm often impatient and don't get the number of roots I could when I air layer, so then I reduce some of the foliage to compensate - reduce water loss after I remove the layer.

A collected tree might have more roots than the layer, or might have less depending on the tree and how it's collected. I've seen pics of plenty of collected trees here that have one or two scraggly feeder roots left. They still might make it if collected in season, but probably won't in the heat of summer.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Good point about the root tips.

 

[Shibui]

I have seen some interesting stuff from a few British collectors who believe that not only is summer collecting viable but often preferable. Mostly deciduous I think.
I know many of our Australian natives do far better when root pruned and collected in warmer moths, even in the hooter months of our summer. I have often questioned why. They are, after all, just plants with roots and leaves like most others so why the difference?
Many experts just keep doing the same thing they were taught without question and assure us it is the only way. Most have never even tried another way.
I like when people question established thinking and even better when they try something new to see what happens.

 

[sorce]

I bet if everyone here typed out their layer collection/removal operation, each would be different.
So many variables have a bearing on this conversation.

I certainly don't believe..

feeder roots are only at the ends of long main roots, etc

Because it certainly isn't true.

I was talking with @Trenthany In my radiallayer thread, about how layers in my proposed containers
Don't even need repotting. You just cut the branch, and set it down on the bench.

This is the best way. One less Repot. Duh!

Keep Fuddling with your uncut sphagnum in plastic baggies, that is working 10 steps back on our first mission which is good rootage.

I will keep laughing and poking fun.

Sorce

 

[Tieball]

When collecting a tree you lose most of the root tips, that's where the action happens.
When separating an air-layer those will be fine. That's a big difference.

This makes sense to me. I often forget about the importance of the root tips.

 

[Tieball]

Before and after. About 18 months from stump to present.


View attachment 312536View attachment 312537View attachment 312538

Nice trees. I like the lighter open air emotion created by the trees. Mighty fine! Nice work you’ve done in developing all three trees.

 

[doctorater]

I bet if everyone here typed out their layer collection/removal operation, each would be different.
So many variables have a bearing on this conversation.

I certainly don't believe..

Because it certainly isn't true.

I was talking with @Trenthany In my radiallayer thread, about how layers in my proposed containers
Don't even need repotting. You just cut the branch, and set it down on the bench.

This is the best way. One less Repot. Duh!

Keep Fuddling with your uncut sphagnum in plastic baggies, that is working 10 steps back on our first mission which is good rootage.

I will keep laughing and poking fun.

Sorce

Sorce, I read your "radiallayer thread" from 2014 and found it quite interesting. Did you ever post more about that method or have you learned more in subsequent experiments with it?

 

[Joe Dupre']

Whoa! Correction. I said I seperated the air layer a couple of weeks ago. That didn't look right.......or even possible. More like 5 weeks. Still, both halves really took off. Like one of my older friends says " I slept, therefore I've forgotten.".

 

[Joe Dupre']

Sorce, Re: radiallayer. That is brilliant. I will definitely try that.

 

[sorce]

Sorce, I read your "radiallayer thread" from 2014 and found it quite interesting. Did you ever post more about that method or have you learned more in subsequent experiments with it?

Not really. Except recently I typed that the container doesn't need removing from the layer when collected, it stays in there. I think it was pictured but never expressed for the large benefit it offers.

I haven't had the "airlayer bug" in a while, well, bug no material!

Sorce

 

[doctorater]

Not really. Except recently I typed that the container doesn't need removing from the layer when collected, it stays in there. I think it was pictured but never expressed for the large benefit it offers.

I haven't had the "airlayer bug" in a while, well, bug no material!

Sorce

Thanks for the reply. I plan to give this method a try. I enjoy reading your posts; entertaining and informative. I see your profile says that you're in Berwyn, IL - I lived for several years in Wheaton, just a few miles West of you, before moving out much farther West of you (Idaho). Anyway, have a great day.

doctorater

 

[kale]

Hi all! Speakin of air layers, I have one going since early May and when I peeked to see the progress the other day I saw a big fat callous ring instead of roots. Think it will work or has it not progressed enough in two months?