All aboard the Mugo train!

Cosmos

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My hesitation is between a larger colander and a smaller pond basket, Vance, so I'm following your lead here.

If I read your post correctly, I should have no fear of expanding the rootball in the large red colander because once the tree has that kind of fine mass of roots, it can be reduced much more than when you initially start with the nursery container?
 

Vance Wood

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I have found that to be the case. However I have traditionally reduced down the soil mass from a nursery container before putting into a grow planter like we are talking about. Here is how it works. Step one: Remove all the duff, crud and old needles from the top of the nursery soil mass down to the beginning of the surface roots. Step two: Take a saw and cut 50% off of the remaining soil mass from the bottom of the soil mass. Step three: With a root rake or root hook loosen the soil on the sides of the remaining soil mass enough to free up the circling roots. Do not intrude into the soil ball more than an inch. You just want to make sure you have a new direction for the majority of the roots. All of this is a start in the right direction.
 

Vance Wood

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My hesitation is between a larger colander and a smaller pond basket, Vance, so I'm following your lead here.

If I read your post correctly, I should have no fear of expanding the rootball in the large red colander because once the tree has that kind of fine mass of roots, it can be reduced much more than when you initially start with the nursery container?
I have found that to be the case. However I have traditionally reduced down the soil mass from a nursery container before putting into a grow planter like we are talking about. Here is how it works. Step one: Remove all the duff, crud and old needles from the top of the nursery soil mass down to the beginning of the surface roots. Step two: Take a saw and cut 50% off of the remaining soil mass from the bottom of the soil mass. Step three: With a root rake or root hook loosen the soil on the sides of the remaining soil mass enough to free up the circling roots. Do not intrude into the soil ball more than an inch. You just want to make sure you have a new direction for the majority of the roots. All of this is a start in the right direction.
 

silvertab

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@Vance Wood
I feel the black pond basket may be a bit too small in terms of width

Sorry for derailing this thread a bit; I see you are in Montreal too, where do you find pond baskets here? I looked for them but couldn't find anything! (I did find cheap-ish colanders at the dollar store however).
 

Cosmos

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Sorry for derailing this thread a bit; I see you are in Montreal too, where do you find pond baskets here? I looked for them but couldn't find anything! (I did find cheap-ish colanders at the dollar store however).

I'll give you the name of the store only if you promise not to buy them all...

http://www.faucherbotanix.com/index.php
 

Soldano666

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I think the best plan forward is to return these to Lowe's after I back fill the pile of soil I removed, nice chunky lil trunk, but what the ef do i do with this
 

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Soldano666

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Whelp screw driving back to town, I was able to untangle most of that mess and find the base 3 inches deeper, minimal roots were cut off and I managed to shoehorn it into this 9 in pond basket. I cut out a few problematic lower branches and thinned some whorls to let light into the interior. It will atke a bunch more removal before I have a path forward but these are tge 2 projected fronts I have chosen.
 

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Vance Wood

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I never said this was easy. Finding the soul of a bonsai in the tangle of all kinds of branches growing all over the place is what makes the Mugo a difficult subject. These trees have decent trunks and are worth working with. If you can't see this or understand any part of developing raw material your into the wrong trees, for now. Most of my Mugo started out as bad if not worse. Maybe you are too much into looking for someone to hold you by the hand. If you can't pull branches back and examine the branches from the base up and see a possible direction you are not ready for anything but a by the number Juniper. Mugos are exercises in elimination, every thing else you are likely to encounter at this point is an exercise to grow new branches blah, blah, blah. Can't you see in looking beyond the branches, a continuation of a trunk line that becomes evident if you remove this branch or cut back that branch? In essence growing Mugos is an exercise in clip and grow. Maybe you should study that process. I don't mean to be harsh but come on, if this was easy there we be far more people growing Mugos than are currently, outside of Europe where the trees' designs have the initial part of the process taken care of by nature. All that is left for you to do is the artistic stuff and digging it out of the ground to haul it off the mountain.
 

Soldano666

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I never said this was easy. Finding the soul of a bonsai in the tangle of all kinds of branches growing all over the place is what makes the Mugo a difficult subject. These trees have decent trunks and are worth working with. If you can't see this or understand any part of developing raw material your into the wrong trees, for now. Most of my Mugo started out as bad if not worse. Maybe you are too much into looking for someone to hold you by the hand. If you can't pull branches back and examine the branches from the base up and see a possible direction you are not ready for anything but a by the number Juniper. Mugos are exercises in elimination, every thing else you are likely to encounter at this point is an exercise to grow new branches blah, blah, blah. Can't you see in looking beyond the branches, a continuation of a trunk line that becomes evident if you remove this branch or cut back that branch? In essence growing Mugos is an exercise in clip and grow. Maybe you should study that process. I don't mean to be harsh but come on, if this was easy there we be far more people growing Mugos than are currently, outside of Europe where the trees' designs have the initial part of the process taken care of by nature. All that is left for you to do is the artistic stuff and digging it out of the ground to haul it off the mountain.

Yes I understand mr wood, I was simply just putting another mugo on the train. I was not looking for a hand to hold by any means or even nessacaraly asking for help. Was just pointing out the obvious of what work I had to do to get this into a pot, and on its way.
I have done this before with success following your methods...
Yes I can follow a leader and see a road ahead, theres a metric fuck ton to work with or eliminate here, I cant justify removing anymore at this point though. Yes I understand clip and grow, and yes I can follow a trunk and see potential in yhe branching, thats why i only left with 2 not all of them. Jeesh I diddnt mean to wake the bear
 

Vance Wood

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Yes I understand mr wood, I was simply just putting another mugo on the train. I was not looking for a hand to hold by any means or even nessacaraly asking for help. Was just pointing out the obvious of what work I had to do to get this into a pot, and on its way.
I have done this before with success following your methods...
Yes I can follow a leader and see a road ahead, theres a metric fuck ton to work with or eliminate here, I cant justify removing anymore at this point though. Yes I understand clip and grow, and yes I can follow a trunk and see potential in yhe branching, thats why i only left with 2 not all of them. Jeesh I diddnt mean to wake the bear
My appologies, I didn't mean to bit your head off. However; do you have any idea how frustrating it is when you try to tell people how to do these trees and you hear about putting them back in the nursery container and returing them to the vendors? I feel like I am making cookies with gun powder.
 

Bonsai901

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After an unexpected death in the family took me away from home for the biggest part of a month, my mugo seems to be the hardest hit by our unseasonably hot temps.
Luckily I had someone to water them once a day, but it appears some of them needed more.
Any tips on nursing it back from the dead?
 

Vance Wood

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After an unexpected death in the family took me away from home for the biggest part of a month, my mugo seems to be the hardest hit by our unseasonably hot temps.
Luckily I had someone to water them once a day, but it appears some of them needed more.
Any tips on nursing it back from the dead?
Just let it sit. It does not look good. As long as there is some green left on it there is hope even if it takes two seasons. Water only when it starts to dry out and you might have you version of the Zombi Mugo.
 

sorce

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Jeesh I diddnt mean to wake the bear

Lol! Bear been woke!

Mfr still drowsy though!

@Vance Wood all I mean is eff that colander for it's shape...not its usefulness.
That is actually a well holed container.

But being the well-holed container that it is...
It is going to produce a root Mass the same shape...

Which for me ..... Leads to this situation . (bottom).
2018-06-26-03-48-30.jpg
Just thinking of the root Mass the colander will leave you, and the tendency for any bonsai pot to be more prone to holding water around the bottom seam...
The colander makes that the very place you won't have roots....which will lead to a lot of unused water there...blah blah...
Eff the colander

Where as the top, with what would be the pond basket, will be a more appropriately shaped rootmass for a Bonsai pot.

I understand you can shave the roots to better fit into a pot....

But for me....

The very best thing about a colander...or more properly defined ...a proper root pruning container, (which all colanders are not.) Is its ability to grow a rootmass that doesn't need trimming.

The way I look at it...

As soon as one gets a tree growing in an appropriately shaped proper root pruning training pot....
Success is (it depends) imminent.

As there will no longer be a need to cut off big roots, Which to me...is the MOST risky operation there is.

This is a 30-50year project.20180429_161613.jpg
Everything to be built from those 2 buds closest to the trunk. Above you can see the bud above the one close branch.
Below you can see that bud turned branch peeking out from behind.2018-06-26-03-34-40.jpg
This tree responded with as much vigor expected in those 2 small keeper parts...And as much as I try to kill that middle branch...Stripped it and everything...
It still popped a bud I knocked off in the blue circle.

For me .....this long game is ok...where every 4 years or so I can just open up the roots a little, cutting much less than 50%.

Where one may get more rapid growth in a larger basket, they still must reduce the roots significantly to get it in a small pot.

I think EVERYONE underestimates the usefulness of a colander.

IMO...you are the only one to realize their true power for mugos...as the rest of us are merely in the first Basket. Maybe a few of us are onto the second repot, and into years 4-8.

But it's really not going to be till years 8-12, and 12-16...that the choice tending at each repot really really gets that core Unkillable!

For instance....one 1/4in thick root that reaches the edge of a 5in basket with no forking....
When cut back closer to the trunk now has this exponential potential to grow hundreds of feeder tips by the Time it hits the edge.

So lets say you have 7 surface roots that fork to 14...them 14 to 28...and those 28 have the potential to be cut back in a safe manner to be the ones getting root pruned and forked up....

The math ain't exact but that's (it depends) some 2,800 new feeder root tips every repot.

Every "offending" root we manage to find and snip back at repot has the potential to become this health force that we underestimate.

I found this isn't really about patience....
But being reasonable...
Having realistic goals...

A sapling on a 3 year plan to a pot is failure.
Same sapling on a 40 year plan is success.

I have to pay attention to everything, and attempt to read the future to set these realistic goals.

Then it becomes this thing where you have to be real about what you actually achieved.

So far...my predictions/expectations, have been quite accurate. Thanks to you!

This then takes any material into this realm of "obedience", "predictability"...this is the "relationship" they (lol) talk about having with a tree before beginning to work on it.

That's when a tree becomes "good for bonsai" to me.
Mugo surely is!

Gotta go water!

Wow...that was one huh!?

Sorce
 

Bonsai901

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Just let it sit. It does not look good. As long as there is some green left on it there is hope even if it takes two seasons. Water only when it starts to dry out and you might have you version of the Zombi Mugo.
Well shaded?
Also should I refrain from fertilizing? I was going to refert all my trees this weekend.
 
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Vance Wood

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Well shaded?
Also should I refrain from fertilizing? I was going to refert all my trees this weekend.
Do not fertilize it! Keep it in partial shade, fullshade may create more damage if that matters.
 

vedecx

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@Soldano666 Couldn't you use that thick branch on the left as a middle section, pick a new leader coming off of it to grow out and eventually eliminate the foliage on the left? Seems it would add movement, and create taper.
 

Vance Wood

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@Soldano666 Couldn't you use that thick branch on the left as a middle section, pick a new leader coming off of it to grow out and eventually eliminate the foliage on the left? Seems it would add movement, and create taper.
@Soldano666 Couldn't you use that thick branch on the left as a middle section, pick a new leader coming off of it to grow out and eventually eliminate the foliage on the left? Seems it would add movement, and create taper.
Maybe but doing anything to it now will turn it into garbage.
 

vedecx

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It was more a question of long term development goal. Something to slowly work towards, not something to jump to right away. I kind of wonder if the route I suggested would look too, contrived though, too much like a classic JBP. What is your opinion of mimicking such a styling for mugo, Mr. Wood?
 

Vance Wood

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It was more a question of long term development goal. Something to slowly work towards, not something to jump to right away. I kind of wonder if the route I suggested would look too, contrived though, too much like a classic JBP. What is your opinion of mimicking such a styling for mugo, Mr. Wood?
It has been my observation over the years that JBP are portrayed as formal upright or informal upright, That can be done but it kind of takes a special tree to do the formal upright something not often found in Mugos and difficult to make happen from material that does not naturally tend in that direction. I am a proponent of watching to see what is happening. I look for the appearance of traits that speak to me. I am not a strong fan of looking for a way to make a tree into something I have determined in the beginning I want without a care for what is happening with the tree. I suppose it is only my point of view but the term Mimick is almost an insult. It is always my hope that what I do with a tree is a manifestation of what would happen to any particular tree if nature had hundred years to work on it. Usually anything that is a mimick is obviously artificial, even if skillfully done. If it looks artificial it is not good.
 
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