Am I a Thuja? Advice needed..

[MapleMart]

Hi folks, first time posting here. I’ve been trying to identify my tree so I know what my options are for future styling. I’ve come to the conclusion it’s a Thuja.. but would like a second opinion?. I have just repotted it here.. View attachment 357705

I love the trunk but the tree is too tall and leggy, needs a lot of work to get it into shape. Will this bud back once roots are established if I chop those branches off? If so would I be better off popping it in the ground and developing it that way?...

Any advice would be really appreciated, thank you

 

[MapleMart]

In its original pot how I brought it ^

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I agree, you have a Thuja occidentalis in your pot.

They are fairly reluctant to back bud on wood old enough to have developed bark. You absolutely need some live and growing green foliage on a branch, if you cut a branch back so far that it has no green, the branch will die.

You can get some back budding if you put it in full sun, keep it well watered and fertilize heavily. Generally it is fairly unlikely to back bud, but sometimes they do.

The most reliable way to get branches in areas where the branches or trunk have developed bark is to graft branches into place. You can do single point grafts, cleft grafts or bud grafts. You can also do approach grafts. I recommend single point cleft grafts.

Another possibility is to do the "Drop Branch Murphy" on the tree. Bend one or more branches down, so the branch descends almost parallel to the trunk, bring their growing end down to the level you would have liked a branch to be at. Many old Japanese pines have a "dropped branch" making up the foliage for the lowest level of the tree.

Thuja make fine bonsai. You have a trunk with some age, and the radial roots look pretty good. This tree is probably work working with Its got some potential.

 

[Louisinass]

IT S JUNIPERUS LOUISINASS

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

I didn't think my Thuja eye was fully satisfied.

Diarrhea Juniper? Losing Ass?

Sorce

 

[Cadillactaste]

I tend to agree with Leo...my serious nature mood this morning. The remaining posts are lost on me.

 

[MapleMart]

I agree, you have a Thuja occidentalis in your pot.

They are fairly reluctant to back bud on wood old enough to have developed bark. You absolutely need some live and growing green foliage on a branch, if you cut a branch back so far that it has no green, the branch will die.

You can get some back budding if you put it in full sun, keep it well watered and fertilize heavily. Generally it is fairly unlikely to back bud, but sometimes they do.

The most reliable way to get branches in areas where the branches or trunk have developed bark is to graft branches into place. You can do single point grafts, cleft grafts or bud grafts. You can also do approach grafts. I recommend single point cleft grafts.

Another possibility is to do the "Drop Branch Murphy" on the tree. Bend one or more branches down, so the branch descends almost parallel to the trunk, bring their growing end down to the level you would have liked a branch to be at. Many old Japanese pines have a "dropped branch" making up the foliage for the lowest level of the tree.

Thuja make fine bonsai. You have a trunk with some age, and the radial roots look pretty good. This tree is probably work working with Its got some potential.

I really appreciate your detailed feedback, very helpful and good to confirm the species.

Not being too experienced I’ll probably attempt the drop branch method come the summer once roots are established. Can you recommend any videos/threads as the best way for me to do this?

Thanks again, and I’m glad you can see it’s potential like I do.

*I’m in zone 9 UK btw*

 

[hinmo24t]

synonymous with atlantic white cedar @Leo in N E Illinois ?

i love thujas/awc and have one getting first repot and styling soon
(blowing 40 mph and 17* right now lmao)

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I really appreciate your detailed feedback, very helpful and good to confirm the species.

Not being too experienced I’ll probably attempt the drop branch method come the summer once roots are established. Can you recommend any videos/threads as the best way for me to do this?

Thanks again, and I’m glad you can see it’s potential like I do.

*I’m in zone 9 UK btw*

The best threads on placing dropped branches are from Dav4, his examples are in pines and junipers, but the method is more or less the same for any tree.

This thread has many pages, read to the end. You can see the development and changes.

My Japanese Red Pine

This is a tree I have owned for 4 years. I purchased it at New England Bonsa Gardens on discount during their Members' Day celebration (I REALLY miss NEBG!!!). Hitoshi had picked this one up in CA during one of his buying trips, where I think it had sat in someones back yard for a LONG time...

www.bonsainut.com

This one is about a Japanese black pine as literati, the dropped branch is used here too. This style is probably too sparse for your tree, but worth a look.

JBP Literati

I bought this one as a curved 4-5 yr old whip of a tree, maybe 8 years ago. I briefly planted it in the ground and bent it a bit more before digging it up to move south 6 + years ago. It was wired out for the first time 3 years ago, then planted in the current training pot 2 years ago. This...

www.bonsainut.com

This thread the JWP has a less dramatically dropped, dropped branch,

JWP Pick the front!

I bought this tree at the National Show. It's a grafted JWP on what we think is a Lodgepole trunk. It was grafted about 20 years ago. This first picture is how it's currently sitting in the pot. It's hard to get the full feeling of the tree from a photo, so I'll try to explain what you're...

www.bonsainut.com

This is the thread that has most of Dav4's trees, many of which use "dropped branches" to fill in foliage in the lower parts of the tree.

Bonsai at work…

So, work for me slows down just a bit this time of year, but my kid's extracurricular activities explode as well. Bringing a tree to work will sometimes allow me to work a tree that, unfortunately, won't get touched when I'm actually at home. So, I'm just wondering if anybody else capitalizes...

www.bonsainut.com

This thread is about a juniper, demonstrates dropped branches and grafting, the techniques for grafting will apply to your Thuja should you decide to try it.

A grafted juniper

This is a tree I acquired over 8 years ago. Initially grown in CA, it was brought to NEBG, and eventually ended up in my backyard. It was easily a third taller, but it's been cut down and fully styled/wired out two times. I believe the tree was labeled 'prostrata'...the foliage makes me think...

www.bonsainut.com

Here is a different JBP

JBP restyle

what do you think? Before: After:

www.bonsainut.com

This thread by Brian van Fleet the branches are all going up at the beginning, and by the end all the branches are bent down.

Shimpaku from Evergreen Gardenworks

I posted a sneak-preview of this on a different thread, and decided to start one that will hopefully run for some years to come. This is is a shimpaku from Brent Walston; among his first and largest, and has happily moved South! If it has a good winter, I may start some training this spring...

www.bonsainut.com

This is probably enough reading for a week or two, browse through other parts of this forum. Ask more questions. Join a local bonsai club, try to visit a bonsai show.


This thread I hesitate to refer you to, as there is some very good info, and some questionable info, and some bickering, not everyone agrees on everything. But overall the good info might help.

The "Rules" of bonsai

Hopefully, this thread will promote respectful discussion! Why are there "Rules" in bonsai? Who makes these rules anyway? Is it "Art" if the tree follows the rules? I'll start off the discussion with my answer to almost every question about bonsai: "It depends"! (I know that's not really...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[MapleMart]

Just a little update on my Thuja, started wiring it today to try and make it look more like a tree. This is my first time wiring so don’t look too closely, ha. A lot more work to do all over but I can see it’s potential..

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Sorry, I did not see your reply right away.

Good. You got the tree wired. The learning is in the doing, this is a good start. Next time the wire should be less tightly coiled. The coils should be around a 45 degree angle, give or take. Use the search function, look for posts by @Adair M on wiring, he explains it better than I could. For now, leave this wire in place for 6 months to a year or so. Remove it when you see it start to bite in. When you remove the wire, give it a few days, see what needs to be re-wired. Typically, wired, and the rewired will be necessary for 5 or more years. Until you get the shapes right.

There are tweaks I would make with your current branch positions, but for this growing season everything is "close enough" that I'd leave it alone until next round of wiring. Then I would work on refining your wiring technique and work on refining branch positions.

Nice start.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Remind me (tag me with the @ sign) and over the winter 2021-2022 I will try to come up with a virtual plan for this tree. Right now, it is best to just let it grow as is. You do have the right idea for a drop branch there in the back where you put one. For now it is "growing season", let it recover and grow.

I would add another half inch to inch of potting media to your pot. You have too much of your Nebari exposed. Bury those surface roots. They are too small to be that exposed. Fill the pot to just a little under the upper rim. You need those surface roots to continue to grow and thicken. Exposed they will die off leaving you with an unattractive volcano of ugly roots with a tree perched on top. Just go through photos, you will see many trees with roots (nebari) that are an ugly mess. Those are examples of what not to do. Probably 50% of USA bonsai hobbyists have no clue on how to develop a decent nebari. Then look at trees by @Adair M , @Dav4 and @rockm and @JudyB and you will notice good to perfectly developed nebari. Those good examples are in part because they kept the surface roots buried for the first 10 or so years their trees were being developed.

So put more media on your pot. Get those roots covered. When you repot you an start refining your surface roots, but then when they repotting is done, the roots are buried again until next time. It takes a while, a decade or more before it is time to expose the nebari.

 

[MapleMart]

Remind me (tag me with the @ sign) and over the winter 2021-2022 I will try to come up with a virtual plan for this tree. Right now, it is best to just let it grow as is. You do have the right idea for a drop branch there in the back where you put one. For now it is "growing season", let it recover and grow.

I would add another half inch to inch of potting media to your pot. You have too much of your Nebari exposed. Bury those surface roots. They are too small to be that exposed. Fill the pot to just a little under the upper rim. You need those surface roots to continue to grow and thicken. Exposed they will die off leaving you with an unattractive volcano of ugly roots with a tree perched on top. Just go through photos, you will see many trees with roots (nebari) that are an ugly mess. Those are examples of what not to do. Probably 50% of USA bonsai hobbyists have no clue on how to develop a decent nebari. Then look at trees by @Adair M , @Dav4 and @rockm and @JudyB and you will notice good to perfectly developed nebari. Those good examples are in part because they kept the surface roots buried for the first 10 or so years their trees were being developed.

So put more media on your pot. Get those roots covered. When you repot you an start refining your surface roots, but then when they repotting is done, the roots are buried again until next time. It takes a while, a decade or more before it is time to expose the nebari.

Again thanks for your time and advice, I’ve just topped up the pot to just under the rim covering the roots. I’ll be sure to @ you come winter with an update

in terms of position, are they best kept in full sun or do they prefer a bit of shade?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Again thanks for your time and advice, I’ve just topped up the pot to just under the rim covering the roots. I’ll be sure to @ you come winter with an update

in terms of position, are they best kept in full sun or do they prefer a bit of shade?

You are in the UK, zone 9, so I assume the south. Am I right? If you could edit your profile, the link is in the menu line on the right, top of the page. Click on the Icon, and you can add your general location to your profile. I looked back at previous posts to find your location, but not everyone will take the time to do so.

Anyway. UK is fairly moist and humid through the summer, so I would say full sun would be best. They tolerate shade, but grow the tightest foliage in full sun. They really need at least 6 hours a day of direct sun to keep foliage tight for bonsai.

In the desert southwest of USA and other brutal hot and dry climates, Thuja should be in the shade for the hottest part of the day. But in the UK that should not be a problem. You actually have rain occasionally in summer.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

For winter, just set the pot on the ground. Do not bring it indoors to shelter. It needs all the cold possible to get its chill requirement met. It is not a "tropical tree", it must have a cold rest in winter. So in winter leave it in an exposed position so it will get as much cold as possible.

 

[MapleMart]

You are in the UK, zone 9, so I assume the south. Am I right? If you could edit your profile, the link is in the menu line on the right, top of the page. Click on the Icon, and you can add your general location to your profile. I looked back at previous posts to find your location, but not everyone will take the time to do so.

Anyway. UK is fairly moist and humid through the summer, so I would say full sun would be best. They tolerate shade, but grow the tightest foliage in full sun. They really need at least 6 hours a day of direct sun to keep foliage tight for bonsai.

In the desert southwest of USA and other brutal hot and dry climates, Thuja should be in the shade for the hottest part of the day. But in the UK that should not be a problem. You actually have rain occasionally in summer.

I believe I’m 8b, I’m right in the heart of the UK in the East Midlands. Robin Hood country. Ah that’s good then I have been keeping it in full sun so I shall continue to do so.

Obviously I have wired the main branch structures (albeit could be better) but is it worth me wiring all the foliage too at this stage? Just to try and fill and more of those holes and get some more light in to it..

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I would wait until next year to wire the foliage. You need time to refine the design plan.

Also, foliage has an upper and lower surface, even foliage that is tilted on edge vertically. If you accidentally turn a leaf so that the underside is up, the leaf frond will die. Use time now to learn to distinguish upper and lower surfaces, even on vertically oriented fronds.

Also you should get yourself more bonsai, to practice wiring on.

Then next year, remove all the wire. Let rest a few weeks, then rewire. Then you can wire out the foliage.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

The solution for impatience to do bonsai work is get more trees. The "right size" collection is where you always feel a little behind on your bonsai duties. For many that is between 25 and 100 trees.