Am I kidding myself?

[evolve]

Hi All,

New to the forums (first post) and new to bonsai. Being an amateur with little experience I'm sure I'm going to suffer the same mistakes that the more experienced folks here see all the time. Hopefully this isn't one of them...

I picked up this white pine (flexilis/reflexa depending on who you ask) from a local big box store (I know, I know). I got it for a few reasons.

1. It was cheap. Not sure if it was labeled wrong or what, but several other trees with this caliper of trunk were 3 times the cost.

2. It's got a nice stout lower trunk with some interesting movement.

3. There is at least one, if not two, candidate branches for creating a new trunk line and getting some taper.

Now of course it doesn't come without it's problems / challenges. For starters it's nearly 2 meters tall and will need to be reduced drastically. As is, I can only really see using 1/10th of what's there now in the final tree. The soil and roots were a disaster -- sopping wet and solid clay. That's what I get for buying at a big box store. The needle length is also undesirable and I do not know how well they will reduce. But, they are a beautiful blue hue with a white stripe and very soft. The first whorl, where I'd like to make the new trunk line, is just barely starting to bulge. This I feel will need to be addressed right away. Right now it's barely noticeable, but I imagine without some branch removal in the whorl it's going to get worse.

I'm hoping someone who isn't starry eyed with newbie bonsai fanaticism can assess the tree and my judgment on this one. If the needles reduce and I get some back budding I think it has a ton of potential, but I don't have the experience to really know and am very blinded by my enthusiasm at the moment.



The second pic shows a long branch coming out from the first whorl to the right, which is my vision for the new trunk line. You'll see there is a long straight section in this branch that will either need to back bud or be cut in the future.

Thoughts?

Many thanks

 

[JudyB]

Welcome to the forum. I don't know what your horticulture background is, but pines are a difficult subject for first time (and even more experienced bonsai people) And to top that off, white pines of the type that you have are difficult for bonsai all around.
But I wish you luck!

 

[rockm]

The good news is that you chose a pretty nice trunk (for a white pine). Decent movement in the bottom third of any trunk is a good start on a nice finished bonsai.

The bad news is that, as Judy said, this is a particularly difficult bonsai subject and will take some advanced techniques to convert into a bonsai. If the trunk were, say on a deciduous tree, it would be an excellent choice. Even if it were on a Japanese Black pine, it would have a better future as those put on flakier bark and shorter needles with some age and effort. White pine does neither easily.

If this were mine, I'd chop the top off about three inches above the first two small branches where the trunk starts that long straight part. Then I'd let it alone for a few years and go find some more cooperative material...

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Yep...what he said...^
Welcome!

 

[Gene Deci]

The good news is you seem to have an eye for bonsai possibilities (which isn't all that common in people just starting out) and your plans show some savy too. Just the wrong variety tree. Welcome.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I love five needle pines It is very difficult to get to a nice bonsai from where you are right now with this tree, HOWEVER...

Don't throw it in the trash, it is a pretty tree. Use it as a training ground to try to develop pine skills that you will need later on. Pines have an annual rhythm of care that is difficult to master, and five needle pines (white pines, ponderosa pines, etc) require that you do some things exactly opposite of what you would do with two-needle pines (black pines, mugo pines, etc). So focus on pine CARE instead of focusing on bonsai design (at least for this tree).

Understand that when you buy a nursery tree the biggest problems will likely be underground. With bonsai, the most important part of the tree is the nebari - the point where the trunk meets the roots. Nursery trees tend to have really poor nebari; poor root spread at the ground level, bad trunk flare, etc. While you may be able to fix branches (easy) or trunks (moderate), to fix nebari can be very difficult. Don't let me dissuade you - I am just talking off the top of my head atm.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

..... five needle pines (white pines, ponderosa pines, etc) .....

ponderosa is a 3 needle pine


[yes i am fully aware it takes on many forms including a 5 needle variety at different lat.... but I just wanted to take this opportunity to give you a hard time ]

 

[evolve]

All, thank you for the replies.

If the trunk were, say on a deciduous tree

Funny you say that as the whole reason I stopped by the garden center was to see if I could find any deciduous material. To my shock and awe they were all grafted and not particularly well.

chop the top off about three inches above the first two small branches

That's (more or less) exactly what I'd like to do. Although I'm super nervous about chopping it all in one go. I was thinking more like 1/3rd at a time over the next few years. But I'm just looking for an excuse to do it all in one fell swoop. If I were confident it's not going to slow down the overall progress or out right kill it, I would go ahead.

The good news is you seem to have an eye for bonsai possibilities (which isn't all that common in people just starting out) and your plans show some savy too

Thanks. Maybe one day I'll be brave enough to post pics of my first purchase and we'll all have a laugh at how unsuitable it is and how I butchering the poor thing. It unfortunately wasn't cheap, but it did buy me some education.

focus on pine CARE instead of focusing on bonsai design

With my lack of experience I feel like this is exactly what I should be doing. But the urge to chop that trunk is still strong. I want to have my cake and eat it too!

biggest problems will likely be underground

What little nebari is there has some issues for sure.



Hoping I'll get some root growth off the left side in that last pic. My bigger concern is the health of the roots. After removing all the mulch I found the root ball was really quite small and mostly clay. I removed the burlap and a few big chunks fell off from their own weight. There appeared to be very little actual root in them. I wasn't exactly planning a re-pot but also wasn't expecting to find the the nursery pot filled with 70% mulch so I did the best I could with what I had. Loosened the ball to try to get some air in there without too much disturbance and filled the rest with some decent soil. For the trouble I might as well have gone out and collected something wild.

Anyway, logic tells me I should probably just work on getting the roots healthy before considering anything else. As badly as I want to chop it.

 

[Eric Schrader]

Be very careful not to overwater with that soil in your pot. I don't know where you are but if the tree hasn't started pushing candles yet you might be better off removing soil from one half of the rootball and using bonsai soil. (like half bare-rooting it) I don't bare root conifers all at once but in stages instead. If it's too late to repot then you probably should only be watering it weekly or something. Root rot is one of the biggest killers of pine trees.

 

[evolve]

Good to know, thanks. I didn't bare root any of it, but because there was so little soil to begin with it is now sitting in mostly bonsai soil (I had to use all that I had to fill that nursery pot, arg). I put some of the mulch back on top and have surrounded the pot with leaf and pine litter to help protect the roots from freezing. I'm in southwest Colorado (yamadori heaven). The climate here is interesting. This winter for the most part has been warm and dry, very mild. But we inevitably get late winter storms, sometimes as late as May. We had a storm earlier this week and the temps were hovering just below freezing.

A few other interesting tid bits about my location. A lot of the surrounding area is like a high altitude desert. The conifers are outstanding. Drive an hour north and you'll find 4000+ meter peaks and the largest and most remote wilderness area in Colorado. I do a lot of alpine climbing and the trees that survive at these locations are unreal! I've seen little conifers growing out of rocks, on the sides of mountains, and well above timberline. Good stuff and very inspiring.

 

[JudyB]

Well you seem to have the right spirit for bonsai, experimentation with the risk/expectation of possible failure is key to doing anything worthwhile. You should update your profile for where you live so good advice oriented to your climate can be given. Sounds like somewhere near the Weimenuche? I backpack there every couple of years...

 

[Bonsai Nut]

ponderosa is a 3 needle pine


[yes i am fully aware it takes on many forms including a 5 needle variety at different lat.... but I just wanted to take this opportunity to give you a hard time ]

Smarty! I was actually thinking Bristlecone but I typed Ponderosa. Can't say that I've ever kept a Ponderosa (that I can remember). Just proves that it is dangerous to trust everything I say

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Smarty! I was actually thinking Bristlecone but I typed Ponderosa. Can't say that I've ever kept a Ponderosa (that I can remember). Just proves that it is dangerous to trust everything I say

LOL not worries!!! Do you have Bristlecone bonsai??? Don't think I have ever seen one.... White Pines aren't huge fans of the weather here.. the eastern white does ok... but doesn't make goood bonsai except in huge size...

 

[sunnspot]

Hi, I'm new here. I sure didn't know that white pines are more difficult than black pines, I noted that bonsai books have dedicated black pine instructions, and I assumed that this meant they are the most difficult. So what is the proper care of white pines? JWP or EWP? I have an EWP that i bought for 5 bucks, and I thought, hey what the heck! If I kill it, it's only $5. Well, it IS still alive, I have been treating it like a black pine. What should I do differently? It is not very pretty, I have trouble making decisions when it comes to branch removal, or even, what is the front?! Thanks for the help. Maybe this should be a new thread....
Sunnie

 

[Adair M]

I'll give it a go:

There are advantages and disadvantages with each kind of pine. All pines take a long time to develop to maturity, longer than deciduous trees. Many will say that pines are not good for beginners because it takes so long for "things to happen". With a trident maple, for example, you can stick it in the ground, and it will grow 6 feet in two years. Won't happen with a pine. Likewise, with a Trident, you can cut all the folliage off, and it will sprout new buds so you can develop branches. That treatment will kill a pine. But, if a beginner LEARNS how to develop pines when they're first starting out, they can start some young material, and have something to work with later. The key is education.

JBP have the advantage of being relatively vigorous, and developing flaky bark at a relatively young age. That makes them look old at a younger actual age. JWP (and Eastern White Pine) are less vigorous, and it takes much longer for their bark to start to flake.

JWP have nice, naturally short, compact needles. When developed, the branches look nice and full, and you don't have to "make" the tree produce short needles. It just does. JBP natuaraly has long needles, and long internodes. If left unchecked, the tree can get "leggy" in a couple of seasons. It takes consistent attention over a span of several years of using the proper techniques to develop twigging (ramification) and energy balancing to induce short internodes and short needles.

JBP are relatively forgiving in that you can do some pretty radical bending, and the tree/trunk/branch can survive it. JWP are more sensitive to such treatment, and branches are more easily broken/killed accidently. Also, since the JWP is a much slower grower than JBP, it takes much longer to grow out to fatten trunks, recover from chops, etc.

Because of the limitiations of JWP, you will often see JWP trees that is grafted. On JBP rootstock. They do this to try to impart JBP "vigor" to JWP. It does help some, but you can almost always see the graft union, and the JBP stock section will fatten substantially faster than the JWP scion. Only a few really look "natural". Eventually, the JWP scion will develop flaky bark, and the tree will look better, but that may be two decades later.

Now, if you take everything I said above, where I typed JWP you substitute EWP, that would all apply EXCEPT EWP also has long needles, and they don't really reduce all that much, and their clusters are not tidy like JWP. I have only seen a few nice EWP bonsai. I'm not saying it's not possible, but it is a more difficult subject than either JBP or JWP. (And I haven't seen any grafted EWP.)

If you like pines, I would study up on them, THEN decide what you like, THEN go get a few.

 

[sunnspot]

Thank You Adair

 

[evolve]

I found the following PDF very informative, www.adamsbonsai.com/pine_foliage.pdf. It covers foliage management in two broad categories, 2 needle and 5 needle species, specifically calling out some of the commonly used species for bonsai (JWP, JBP, Scots, Mugho, Ponderosa), and covers some of the differences in training.

 

[gergwebber]

with such a large chop to make(if you haven't already, you might want to make it a bit long(above the whorl) and plan on creating a large jin at the peak as though it broke or was lightning struck. that is often the best way to hide such a wound in the short term........the next twenty years being the bonsai short term. Or you can cut it flush later. Also, at this point you probably don't have a large concave cutter, but someone at your next local bonsai meeting might!

 

[evolve]

I haven't chopped this yet. My plan is to let it get through a growing season to ensure the growth is strong before I start work on it. Finally seeing some consistent night time temps above freezing and the buds are just starting to show some green.

Any advice on the pending chop would be much appreciated. I'm thinking I'll do the chop early fall. Here is a pic of what I've been planning:



The red lines represent chops and the green, potentials for a new apex. I may leave the smaller chop for another season allowing that branch to grow and help smooth out the taper. My biggest concern is removing so much foliage at one time. Any thoughts on this? Conventional wisdom seems to say that such a drastic chop should be carried out over multiple seasons. Yet, I've run across many examples on the web of folks who've done drastic foliage reduction on conifers with apparently no ill effects.

I was inspired by Vance's Mugo (http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?6867-Yet-another-Mugo-beginning) and have been thinking a short, stubby little jin from the chop would work well. Open to other design ideas too though.