American Beech Collecting

[Jzack605]

There’s a pretty epic Beech yamadori in the woods near me. It’s on private land so I need to get permission, fingers crossed. Fairly certain it’s Fagus grandifolia, American Beech, as they’re pretty common wild here. The tree is pretty big for bonsai, about 4’. But a really epic main leader that twists and curves. I’m wondering, if collected, how much of the roots can these handle being removed? The less of a root ball there is the more doable it will be for retrieval. Finally, what’s an ideal time for collection?

 

[peterbone]

Beech in general are difficult to collect. You need to get a lot of roots. Do you have a photo? Does it have foliage low down? Is it growing in the open or in closed woodland? What kind of soil is it growing in (if clay then there may be no fine roots close to the trunk)? Do you have long dry summers where you are? All these things affect how I would go about collecting it. In the UK I would trench it and leave for a couple of years, then chop and collect. However, your summers in the US are probably too dry to attempt that. However, you said that it's near you so perhaps you could water it once or twice a week over the summer. If you go that route then do the work in early Spring (too late now). You could also collect it in one go if your soil type is not clay and you're confident that you could get plenty of fine roots (Autumn or Spring). You'll have to plan the aftercare as well. You need to provide warmth and humidity perhaps by using the black bag technique after collection.

 

[Jzack605]

I’m not sure what soil type it is. Truth be told I have only seen it from 30ish feet away in the work truck many times. It’s in a woodland area. It has foliage that starts maybe a foot off the ground.

 

[peterbone]

I’m not sure what soil type it is. Truth be told I have only seen it from 30ish feet away in the work truck many times. It’s in a woodland area. It has foliage that starts maybe a foot off the ground.

So firstly I would get a closer look. You can't really assess it's suitability from 30 feet away.

 

[Zach Smith]

American beech is easy to collect, meaning you don't need any fibrous roots at all (really!). My experience over a few decades is that you should expect an 80-90% success rate. Now, with that said the species is frustrating to work with as you are limited to one (possibly two, but the second is weak) flushes of growth each year. The leaves will reduce as you build ramification, and there's no denying they have a lovely and unique appearance.

Use a saw to trunk chop then cut the radial and tap roots (not a shovel), unless the ground is rocky in which case you're on your own. Seal the trunk chop area. Don't chop too high thinking you need to and you'll chop it again later. Don't lift it and put it back in the ground at home. Collect in late winter as soon as the ground isn't frozen anymore.

Good luck!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

It’s a little late in the year to collect. Best to do this before the tree leafs out. Get permission, and then get as much of the fine roots as you can. That doesn’t mean you need to B&B and carry out a 100 lb mass, you can bare-root it and plant it in good soil when you get it home. I prefer to transplant collected D-trees into the ground to regain strength for a year before moving them into a container.

 

[peterbone]

So much conflicting information in these responses. It just goes to show how much local knowledge is required when collecting. You really can't get the right answer without asking a local collector or experimenting.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

So much conflicting information in these responses. It just goes to show how much local knowledge is required when collecting. You really can't get the right answer without asking a local collector or experimenting.

Not really. If you are able to assimilate the two responses, you can get to a reasonable direction. The only real difference is that Zach prefers to start his in a container, and I stick my d-trees back in the ground for a year to recover.

 

[peterbone]

Not really. If you are able to assimilate the two responses, you can get to a reasonable direction. The only real difference is that Zach prefers to start his in a container, and I stick my d-trees back in the ground for a year to recover.

Zach specifically said "Don't lift it and put it back in the ground at home". I'm not saying that either of you are wrong. Both of you are doing what works for you in your location.

 

[Jzack605]

Actually not looking to do a trunk chop. It’s got such great character already I’m looking to keep most of the tree. It’ll be a big bonsai, my favorite kind

Do these get finicky if I were to B+B during the season? Spring-fall.

 

[rockm]

There’s a pretty epic Beech yamadori in the woods near me. It’s on private land so I need to get permission, fingers crossed. Fairly certain it’s Fagus grandifolia, American Beech, as they’re pretty common wild here. The tree is pretty big for bonsai, about 4’. But a really epic main leader that twists and curves. I’m wondering, if collected, how much of the roots can these handle being removed? The less of a root ball there is the more doable it will be for retrieval. Finally, what’s an ideal time for collection?

That you're using height to describe the tree indicates you're probably not experienced enough to get it out alive. That sounds harsh and judgmental (and some will undoubtedly say "go for it--that guy's being an A@#$$%^, but if you really want the tree for bonsai, I'd advise getting some prior experience with some less impressive beech living NEAR the tree you ultimately want. You will wind up killing it and wasting choice material.

We're well past collection season for this year. Dig it now and it will definitely die on you. Collection season in your area is probably late next March or so, but I would check on this LOCALLY not on the Internet. Getting collection advice from someone 500, 1,000 miles, or 10,000 miles away from your area is a hit or miss proposition.

When it does come I'm with Zach. I would containerize it. I don't like having to collect trees twice. To get any benefit from in-ground growing you will have to leave it alone for at least two years. Lifting it before then will provide no benefit at all and will probably set you back by weakening the tree even further. Beech are extremely conservative trees--they grow slowly.

For inspiration--one of the best Fagus Grandifolia bonsai I've ever seen. National Bonsai and Penjing Museum in D.C. In training since 1979, owner Fred Mies gave it to the collection in 2003. The tree was dug in the mid-Atlantic region, I think in Maryland. Note it is not "spectacular" in the sense of extremes. Beech is a quieter tree visually. Lots of gimmicks like dead wood, funky trunks and roots don't work well with it...Just my opinion.

 

[Jzack605]

Why is using the height as part of the description of the tree irrelevant? It’s not harsh, I’m trying to understand how that would have been a point to ignore in the context.

That being said, I don’t have a ton of collecting experience for bonsai; but I have transplanted/B+B/bare root hundreds, if not thousands of trees in a non bonsai application. So I’d be surprised if I couldn’t get this tree out alive using traditional landscape methods.

Awesome examples. I would say the second one’s movement is close to the one I am doing my best to describe

 

[Meh]

I would say the second one’s movement is close to the one I am doing my best to describe

It's the same tree just FYI.

 

[Jzack605]

It's the same tree just FYI.

Thanks for the heads up. It was a relatively quick look at the images.

 

[rockm]

Why is using the height as part of the description of the tree irrelevant? It’s not harsh, I’m trying to understand how that would have been a point to ignore in the context.

That being said, I don’t have a ton of collecting experience for bonsai; but I have transplanted/B+B/bare root hundreds, if not thousands of trees in a non bonsai application. So I’d be surprised if I couldn’t get this tree out alive using traditional landscape methods.

Awesome examples. I would say the second one’s movement is close to the one I am doing my best to describe

Because you will probably be removing it or most of it as you make the tree into a bonsai. Collected trees rarely come out of the ground "bonsai-ready" I'd bet the apex on this one could use a lot of reduction. A four foot bonsai SHOULD have a pretty large trunk and nebari (like 8-12 inches in diameter). A planned bonsai that tall needs a corresponding big nebari to anchor it visually or the top look weird. It's a proportional thing, as well as an editing thing.

Your balled and burlap planting wasn't, most likely, done on a forest growing tree. The experience in landscaping is nice, but not all that applicable to collecting bonsai candidates.

The example is a single specimen in fall and winter. FWIW, decent, developed American beech bonsai are not all that common. To create that tree involves some specialized "beech bonsai" know how--ramification and particularly leaf reduction and maintenance is not all that easy when this species in containerized...

 

[Jzack605]

Because you will probably be removing it or most of it as you make the tree into a bonsai. Collected trees rarely come out of the ground "bonsai-ready" I'd bet the apex on this one could use a lot of reduction. A four foot bonsai SHOULD have a pretty large trunk and nebari (like 8-12 inches in diameter). A planned bonsai that tall needs a corresponding big nebari to anchor it visually or the top look weird. It's a proportional thing, as well as an editing thing.

Your balled and burlap planting wasn't, most likely, done on a forest growing tree. The experience in landscaping is nice, but not all that applicable to collecting bonsai candidates.

The example is a single specimen in fall and winter. FWIW, decent, developed American beech bonsai are not all that common. To create that tree involves some specialized "beech bonsai" know how--ramification and particularly leaf reduction and maintenance is not all that easy when this species in containerized...

I disagree about including the current size for context. Of course a final product will very likely be different; but size of current condition for collection to me seems logically relevant. It wouldn’t make sense to describe the planned tree in this context. I do appreciate the advice so far, so take my disagreement as nothing more than that.

As far as difficulty, I’m not surprised. But there’s only one way to learn those techniques

 

[rockm]

I disagree about including the current size for context. Of course a final product will very likely be different; but size of current condition for collection to me seems logically relevant. It wouldn’t make sense to describe the planned tree in this context. I do appreciate the advice so far, so take my disagreement as nothing more than that.

As far as difficulty, I’m not surprised. But there’s only one way to learn those techniques

It really boils down simple math and the rarity of "natural" bonsai. Fact is most beginners overestimate the height of the trees they make with collected stock and spend subsequent years after collection correcting that mistake...The best bonsai are those that are the most compact. The tree I pictured was most likely 15-20 feet tall originally. It is now 2 feet tall. The chop is two thirds up from the base on the backside of the trunk...

Current size has nothing to do really with collected deciduous trees, as the majority of those trees is removed and regrown in shorter and better proportions to the nebari. There are few exceptions and without pics its hard to tell if yours is one. I doubt it is.

I have a number of collected trees that were 20 feet or taller when they were dug. They are now less than three feet tall.

 

[peterbone]

I disagree about including the current size for context. Of course a final product will very likely be different; but size of current condition for collection to me seems logically relevant. It wouldn’t make sense to describe the planned tree in this context. I do appreciate the advice so far, so take my disagreement as nothing more than that.

As far as difficulty, I’m not surprised. But there’s only one way to learn those techniques

I think what he means is that when we talk about the size of a wild tree it's always in terms of thickness near the base. The height of the tree is irrelevant in terms of collection and the final design. I think you could have received much better and well informed advice if you'd simple waited to post about it once you had a photo. There's so much we still don't know.

 

[rockm]

I disagree about including the current size for context. Of course a final product will very likely be different; but size of current condition for collection to me seems logically relevant. It wouldn’t make sense to describe the planned tree in this context. I do appreciate the advice so far, so take my disagreement as nothing more than that.

As far as difficulty, I’m not surprised. But there’s only one way to learn those techniques

Sorry. I misread this. Current height still has nothing to do with things. Collectors generally talk about trunk diameter and not height of potential collection candidate trees. Height is irrelevant. Trunk diameter is not. Height is changeable. Trunk diameter is really not...

 

[Jzack605]

Ah I’m with ya now. Only reason I left out caliper size is I only have had the chance to view from a distance. It’s a decent sized trunk thickness. Was hoping the height would give reference to that which in hindsight is not the case it’s pretty common for woodland plants to be very leggy.