my nellie
Masterpiece
Sorce, may I remind you son that you have not provided a link to the above statement.
It is a matter of good practice!
Thank you!
American Bonsai Society Announcement
- Thread starter my nellie
- Start date
It is a matter of good practice!
Thank you!
pitchpine
Mame
I don't have a Reddit handle (or even browse that sub very often) , but it seems to me you and the other mods have handled the whole mess rationally and as fairly as possible thus far.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
This principled stand and honest effort is sadly the exception to the rule on the 'net. Too often everyone is allowed to jump to their own (sometimes hatefilled -- on BOTH sides) conclusions. It leads nowhere good. This sounds very much like an interpersonal conflict and hardly related to politics (although these days politics have become a convenient weapon...but that's another thread for the Tea House...)
I, for one, applaud your effort. Thank you!
BillsBayou
Chumono
This entire thing is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I've spent the day looking for evidence and all I'm finding are baseless accusations and hearsay. Please correct me if I'm wrong. My mind is open for business. Links and /or screenshots. Phrases such as "from what I've read of the evidence" will be received as hearsay testimony and will not influence my decision making process. Certainly not in light of the baseless accusation that Seth has levied against Adam.
Adam's exact words are: "When I posted it on those social media sites, it was like the bonsai people turned into bonsai styling fascists."
https://adamaskwhy.com/2017/04/06/some-recent-projects/
In case anyone does not know this, not all fascists are Nazis, yet all Nazis are fascists. The distinction between these two lines of logic are profound. Especially when you prefix "fascists" with "bonsai styling". Fascism has to do with authoritarian rule and dictatorships. I've seen bonsai styling fascists in numerous bonsai forums. I have never thought that a single one of them espoused the beliefs of the Nazi party or the Neo Nazi movement.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
Seth deleted the entire conversation he had with me. Here's the screenshot to the blog (link is above) and the two of us discussing it. In this, you can see the logic he used to make his statement:
As much as I tried to understand and believe Seth's assertions, Adam did not call a specific person a Nazi. In a long conversation I had with Seth, he had nothing to prove that Adam called Kaya a Nazi. He had nothing to show that Adam has ever used the word Nazi to describe anyone in the world of bonsai.
Adam's exact words are: "When I posted it on those social media sites, it was like the bonsai people turned into bonsai styling fascists."
https://adamaskwhy.com/2017/04/06/some-recent-projects/
In case anyone does not know this, not all fascists are Nazis, yet all Nazis are fascists. The distinction between these two lines of logic are profound. Especially when you prefix "fascists" with "bonsai styling". Fascism has to do with authoritarian rule and dictatorships. I've seen bonsai styling fascists in numerous bonsai forums. I have never thought that a single one of them espoused the beliefs of the Nazi party or the Neo Nazi movement.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
Seth deleted the entire conversation he had with me. Here's the screenshot to the blog (link is above) and the two of us discussing it. In this, you can see the logic he used to make his statement:
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Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Isn't Seth banned from here?
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
@BillsBayou , I sure as hell hope there is more to this than these kinds of vague assertions by Seth and others. There are several people I know who are involved in this at the ABS level and they have maintained throughout that the response from ABS, asking for resignations, is more than justified. I hope that doesn't turn out to be BS. This whole episode has been sold as a long standing conspiracy of sorts, where a group of members in "power" positions in the Florida Bonsai society, have been systematically defaming/bullying bonsai professionals over a several year period. Adam has been implicated as being particularly involved in the latest situation which resulted in Juan leaving the country. Supposedly there are emails, letters, eyewitness statements. My interpretation is that these individuals were acting to protect their "turf", their positions in the group, financial interests.
Wouldn't it be something if it turned out to be the other way around, and it was the professional group who were conspiring against Adam and others.
I wonder if we'll ever really know the full truth. People have been calling for evidence but I would think the ABS (and also the individuals directly involved) would have to be careful about releasing emails.
Seth was a member here and was banned several times. He acted like a child. I have no idea if he has grown up since he last posted here.
What a mess...
Wouldn't it be something if it turned out to be the other way around, and it was the professional group who were conspiring against Adam and others.
I wonder if we'll ever really know the full truth. People have been calling for evidence but I would think the ABS (and also the individuals directly involved) would have to be careful about releasing emails.
Seth was a member here and was banned several times. He acted like a child. I have no idea if he has grown up since he last posted here.
What a mess...
music~maker
Shohin
This is the problem I have with all the evidence I've seen to date. Nothing conclusive, nothing rising to the severity of the claims, nothing even fully detailing all of the claims. If somebody has something substantial and real, now would be a really good time to come forward with it.
Maybe there's more, maybe the claims are 100% accurate and substantiated somewhere, but I want to see hard evidence at this point, and I think the community deserves to hear directly from people with first hand accusations and knowledge. I feel bad for everyone involved, I really do, but where does this end?
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
BillsBayou
Chumono
Since Seth is banned from here, I have self-reported asking my post be removed. He is willing to discuss this, so I will engage him elsewhere.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
I don't see why it would be removed. Greg doesn't work that way.
Silentrunning
Chumono
It seems like something is missing here. Generally in a dispute a third party can understand both sides of the disagreement. I can’t understand either side as presented here.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Bingo...Seth was spamming hate to me in PM over this topic. I asked for a screen shot of Adam's text with the word Nazi...couldn't show it. And then blocked me so his messages were hidden. He tried long and hard to provoke anger in me toward Adam. Until he got mad at me for not seeing his view. He was like a dog on a bone...
SU2
Omono
I wish I could agree with 'good shall prevail' but due to the closed-nature of these accusations I fear that's what right isn't necessarily how it'll go..
Wait when did that happen, it becoming "undisputed fact"? Juan's facebook post did not say that, the 'society' reps did - who's corroborated this? I've gotta say that w/ all that's happening, Juan's silence on the matter is deafening.
Nybonsai12
Masterpiece
SU2
Omono
Exactly. It started with juan leaving a facebook post saying thanks to some people in FL, and saying that some slandered him (didn't give any nature of the slander; didn't imply leaving the country at all, let alone as a direct result of this) Then the reps of a bonsai group made a vague condemnation (page 1 here) about multiple people causing Juan to have to go home (so far as I can tell, this is where it's first suggested that Juan's feeling slandered was the catalyst for his return home)
At about the same time time, a mod on reddit writes an open-letter just oozing with righteous-hatred to *1* person in particular, and says they've banned the person unilaterally and against the wishes of the other mod they asked- this was locked & deleted later. So far as I know, that letter and the society are the only ones making accusations that he "left over slander" (and putting the slander in the light of bigotry, though it seems other people's subsequent open-letters are talking about 'artistic slander' like the one on this page that @sorce linked - I've never heard of that person before but it reads like petty nonsense tbh, the person quoted says they were "doing his dirty work", in the context of putting-down others' bonsai-skills, they don't say they were told to do this and frankly there's a CHASM between some people disparaging someone else's art or aesthetic tastes and running someone out of the country over racist ideology which is what the 'Society' reps are saying...)
[edited-to-add: since my posting someone has posted something pertaining to the character of the person I reference above who claims they were 'used to smear others':
somehow I have trouble taking a 'sincere' letter like that seriously from someone who can manage to get *banned* (repeatedly?!) from a *bonsai* forum]
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Did anyone ask if the chap from Costa Rica, was an American
resident or citizen ?
If he was either of the two, why would talk bother him so much
as to leave the area ?
Should not his abilities speak for him ?
None of this makes sense.
Good Day
Anthony
* Strange Seth, was never rude or unfriendly to me?
resident or citizen ?
If he was either of the two, why would talk bother him so much
as to leave the area ?
Should not his abilities speak for him ?
None of this makes sense.
Good Day
Anthony
* Strange Seth, was never rude or unfriendly to me?
SU2
Omono
Wow! I was going to ask Sorce directly for the context in which 'nazi' was supposedly said as the idea of him just going on and saying "you're a nazi" to a 19y/o out of the blue doesn't sound very complete lol, after hearing this Seth person was banned multiple times from this site, and what he's sent to you / his blocking you, it's hard to take his "sincere" letter with any seriousness..
SU2
Omono
Seth must've been before my time, have only heard of him from this thread... But I agree w/ you 100%- so far as I know the only thing Juan said that's got anything to do with any of this circus is:
Juan on facebook said:
This sounds like a complaint about artistic slander, not racial slander - then you have the bonsai society reps saying he left the country over it.. Juan should post something to clarify things, given how much distance there is between what he said, and what the Society posted..
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
It doesn't sound like there was so much racial slander. Apparently Juan was here on a visa (not sure of the type) and legally allowed to work. One of the claims I've seen is that members of the Florida club, including Adam, spread the word that he was here illegally and convinced clubs and individuals not to hire him because of that. There are claims that other types of lies were used against other bonsai artists over the years. You'll have to check facebook if you want the names, I won't post them here. What else may have been said or done...we may never know. Apparently when the ABS sent out requests for information, people were promised anonymity. So unless they choose to come forward and tell their stories directly, we may never find out.
The whole thing isn't sitting well with me. I hope it's not just a beef between 2 groups that got out of control, with one group that is "in power" in a national organization using the resources of that organization to carry out their agenda.
The whole thing isn't sitting well with me. I hope it's not just a beef between 2 groups that got out of control, with one group that is "in power" in a national organization using the resources of that organization to carry out their agenda.
Juan is a Citizen of Costa Rica. He was in the US on a temporary visa. He has been trying to attain permanent residency in the US.
He has returned to Costa Rica.
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