American larch (pseudo first tree)

PA_Penjing

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Another season means another thread. This is an American larch I purchased in the fall of 2018. A volunteer seedling from a Massachusetts backyard. I have gone back and forth with this tree for a long time. Should I sell it or keep it? It’s the first tree I spent any kind of actual money on at the time, not even $100 but it was the beginning of giving myself permission to spend money on the hobby. I have no pics of the tree when purchased but snapped a few after the needles fell and I cut off some unneeded branches. Forgive those guy wires, at that point I had barely ever used wire because all my trees were just trunking up. I went really hard with this tree, at first it was out of excitement, then because I lost interest and love for the tree. Not really many pics along the way until the third and fourth photos from .... this spring? After seeing a larch transformation by leatherback I decided to wire the thing from top to bottom and clean it up. I instantly split an important branch so I pulled back and just did some fine wiring on a few branches so I didn’t disturb the injury. 5th picture is before and 6th is the disappointing after haha. Absolutely not proud of this tree but it offers some sorely needed practice on smaller trees. needs a repot, won’t bother explaining why because it’s a dumb story. But I have a pot picked out if the roots look like they can take the pruning. So that’s the plan for now. Apex will probably need to be completely regrown this summer. Plan to feed heavy and make up for 2 years of poor treatment. Despite all I’ve said I do have high hopes for the tree but worry about it’s future in my relatively warm climate. Just kind of a tree shaped tree, or at least it will be
 

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Jorgens86

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I would let it grow for at least 2 seasons. Then start on wiring the branches
 

PA_Penjing

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I would let it grow for at least 2 seasons. Then start on wiring the branches
Yeah I agree, going into it with wire today made me realize it wasn’t totally ready. Probably just a few loose wires this fall to get the apex into a rough shape
 

PA_Penjing

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the nebari is okay. It is radial and it is all on the same plane, but it's only 3 large roots. I haven't poked around under the soil but I'm hoping I can improve it a tad. Will always be three large main roots but hoping for some options to cut back to. I'll update this thread in the summer or fall.
 
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I would let it grow for at least 2 seasons. Then start on wiring the branches

without touching it? just letting it grow as it wants to without pinching or pruning?

trying to learn more about these as I think they're a species I may have spots to go yamadori hunting for
 

Rfarrell5888

Sapling
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Another season means another thread. This is an American larch I purchased in the fall of 2018. A volunteer seedling from a Massachusetts backyard. I have gone back and forth with this tree for a long time. Should I sell it or keep it? It’s the first tree I spent any kind of actual money on at the time, not even $100 but it was the beginning of giving myself permission to spend money on the hobby. I have no pics of the tree when purchased but snapped a few after the needles fell and I cut off some unneeded branches. Forgive those guy wires, at that point I had barely ever used wire because all my trees were just trunking up. I went really hard with this tree, at first it was out of excitement, then because I lost interest and love for the tree. Not really many pics along the way until the third and fourth photos from .... this spring? After seeing a larch transformation by leatherback I decided to wire the thing from top to bottom and clean it up. I instantly split an important branch so I pulled back and just did some fine wiring on a few branches so I didn’t disturb the injury. 5th picture is before and 6th is the disappointing after haha. Absolutely not proud of this tree but it offers some sorely needed practice on smaller trees. needs a repot, won’t bother explaining why because it’s a dumb story. But I have a pot picked out if the roots look like they can take the pruning. So that’s the plan for now. Apex will probably need to be completely regrown this summer. Plan to feed heavy and make up for 2 years of poor treatment. Despite all I’ve said I do have high hopes for the tree but worry about it’s future in my relatively warm climate. Just kind of a tree shaped tree, or at least it will be
Hi I was wondering if you had any other larch for sale? I live in spencer Massachusetts
 

Brad in GR

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Just this larch, I'm moving away from the genus. My town is probably too warm for anything but Japanese larch.
What zone are you in / what have you noticed as issues - too hot in the summer or not cold enough over winter? I think we aren’t too far off zone-wise, curious...
 

PA_Penjing

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What zone are you in / what have you noticed as issues - too hot in the summer or not cold enough over winter? I think we aren’t too far off zone-wise, curious...
I'm a master of over thinking things so I might be blowing things out of proportion. I would think that being in Michigan, probably lowers your summer highs by a few degrees, you should be able to grow any larch species you want. But, to answer your question.. I have had a few larches that did really well for me, robust growth in the few years I had them. But my new house has full sun all day long and I think the summer temperatures are a little too much on this tree. In winter I set the pot on the ground in the shade and it buds out vigorously in the spring. By mid summer I'm just not seeing the growth I used to see when I kept my larches at my old location. Which was also full sun, but had some dappled shade later in the day. I'm thinking the best thing us zone 6 guys can do is work large when it comes to larch. A bigger pot won't get as hot in the sun (I say this as I plan to cram mine into the smallest pot I have). I throw old t-shirts over my pots when the forecast has highs over 90 degrees. I have a jack pine, larch and englemann spruce. None of these dudes are psyched about my hot summers but they are all still alive with this kind of care. I think because our winters are short (for them) and summers brutal, it's important to make sure the tree stays dormant as long as possible. Thus the shady winter spot and lack of indoor protection. Obviously if it's going to be 0 degrees F or -5 or something I'd put them in the garage for the night
 

Brad in GR

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I'm a master of over thinking things so I might be blowing things out of proportion. I would think that being in Michigan, probably lowers your summer highs by a few degrees, you should be able to grow any larch species you want. But, to answer your question.. I have had a few larches that did really well for me, robust growth in the few years I had them. But my new house has full sun all day long and I think the summer temperatures are a little too much on this tree. In winter I set the pot on the ground in the shade and it buds out vigorously in the spring. By mid summer I'm just not seeing the growth I used to see when I kept my larches at my old location. Which was also full sun, but had some dappled shade later in the day. I'm thinking the best thing us zone 6 guys can do is work large when it comes to larch. A bigger pot won't get as hot in the sun (I say this as I plan to cram mine into the smallest pot I have). I throw old t-shirts over my pots when the forecast has highs over 90 degrees. I have a jack pine, larch and englemann spruce. None of these dudes are psyched about my hot summers but they are all still alive with this kind of care. I think because our winters are short (for them) and summers brutal, it's important to make sure the tree stays dormant as long as possible. Thus the shady winter spot and lack of indoor protection. Obviously if it's going to be 0 degrees F or -5 or something I'd put them in the garage for the night
Lake Michigan does help insulate us a bit from getting too hot - likely a half zone colder than you I suppose. I've had larches for 3 seasons, and they get some shade after 3pm or so. Agreed on leaving them fully exposed for winter, it's a mild one compared to the tundra where they also survive, right?!

I've done a 50/50 mix (fully organic/bonsai soil) on my larch (all are still in training - in the ground or grow boxes) as they seem to not like to dry out all the way, but love a full day of sun. Doing the same for my dawn redwood and others that like wet feet with lots of sun.

Haven't moved any Larch into bonsai pot / small containers so maybe that will be a new challenge as you've experienced...
 

Forsoothe!

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I only know about Tamarack and have never seen an explanation of how to tell the difference between the several kinds of Larches so I don't know if I've ever seen one of the other varieties that will grow in dryer conditions. People habitually grow Tamarack in forests on slabs with as little bonsai media as possible which is twice dumb. They grow in lowlands and bogs. A bog is a lake that has eutrophied to the point where you can walk across the lake on floating bog plants and Tamarack grow there with some roots into the water & mud below and some sideways into the bog plants. To put these trees into high draining rocks is... unfortuitous. To pretend that throwing in some crushed woodchips or peat is going to ameliorate the poor choice of the rocks is silly on its face, but is commonplace.

The southern reach of this tree in Michigan is about Midland, almost dead center in the lower peninsula. The trees can be kept south of that if and only if you bring the bog with them. A deeper than typical pot, light in color, in full sun all day, with a highly organic media, watered every day it doesn't rain or twice any day over ~85°F, and ipso, presto they thrive. Nothing to it. Each factor that is ignored is a nail in the coffin. At some point there are just too many nails to ignore.

People regularly grow them on in larger vessels where they do just fine, then put them into shallow bonsai pots and then wonder why they fade away.

Because of the way they are potted incorrectly rather than how hot it gets in any particular place is probably more at fault for their failure as bonsai. It seems people always react to wilting/drying from ~overheating~ by putting them in shade rather than giving them enough water enough times a day to let them transpire the heat away. These trees absolutely need full sun and cool roots, period. Extra high transpiration should result in extra growth because those minerals and water are food, too, and won't just go through the leaf without being used in photosynthesis. Make sense?

People often do the same thing with Bald Cypress, with similar results.
 

Brad in GR

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I only know about Tamarack and have never seen an explanation of how to tell the difference between the several kinds of Larches so I don't know if I've ever seen one of the other varieties that will grow in dryer conditions. People habitually grow Tamarack in forests on slabs with as little bonsai media as possible which is twice dumb. They grow in lowlands and bogs. A bog is a lake that has eutrophied to the point where you can walk across the lake on floating bog plants and Tamarack grow there with some roots into the water & mud below and some sideways into the bog plants. To put these trees into high draining rocks is... unfortuitous. To pretend that throwing in some crushed woodchips or peat is going to ameliorate the poor choice of the rocks is silly on its face, but is commonplace.

The southern reach of this tree in Michigan is about Midland, almost dead center in the lower peninsula. The trees can be kept south of that if and only if you bring the bog with them. A deeper than typical pot, light in color, in full sun all day, with a highly organic media, watered every day it doesn't rain or twice any day over ~85°F, and ipso, presto they thrive. Nothing to it. Each factor that is ignored is a nail in the coffin. At some point there are just too many nails to ignore.

People regularly grow them on in larger vessels where they do just fine, then put them into shallow bonsai pots and then wonder why they fade away.

Because of the way they are potted incorrectly rather than how hot it gets in any particular place is probably more at fault for their failure as bonsai. It seems people always react to wilting/drying from ~overheating~ by putting them in shade rather than giving them enough water enough times a day to let them transpire the heat away. These trees absolutely need full sun and cool roots, period. Extra high transpiration should result in extra growth because those minerals and water are food, too, and won't just go through the leaf without being used in photosynthesis. Make sense?

People often do the same thing with Bald Cypress, with similar results.
I’ve enjoyed the advantage of having my young project trees (those that I can afford to lose, none of which I have - who only have ‘potential’ at this stage - akin to my own bonsai progress as well) in larger training pots, which has afforded me time to learn @Forsoothe! ’s lesson here... in advance of my collected trees to be moved to smaller pots in the years to come. Thank you for hammering this message home concisely for both larch and dawn redwood. I am fully an organic believer now for these trees.
As an aside, really enjoyed seeing your larch forest at the show last weekend in person. Those larch all have a look of being collected with their mature bark. Really cool.
 

Forsoothe!

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I’ve enjoyed the advantage of having my young project trees (those that I can afford to lose, none of which I have - who only have ‘potential’ at this stage - akin to my own bonsai progress as well) in larger training pots, which has afforded me time to learn @Forsoothe! ’s lesson here... in advance of my collected trees to be moved to smaller pots in the years to come. Thank you for hammering this message home concisely for both larch and dawn redwood. I am fully an organic believer now for these trees.
As an aside, really enjoyed seeing your larch forest at the show last weekend in person. Those larch all have a look of being collected with their mature bark. Really cool.
You are obviously a person of superior perception and excellent taste, too.;) Thanks for the nice words! There is much to learn in bonsai, and as in life there are many ways of doing everything and the more we customize our efforts to the specific needs of the subject, the luckier we will be. If you treat Pines the way you treat your Larches and Dawn Redwoods, one or both will die or languish. Keep your ears open...
 
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