An apology to JudyB

[Anthony]

Judy,

yesterday I missed your post. Unfortunately, even after I read what you wrote, I realised that I had nothing to respond with.

I learn't all I know about Bonsai in the real world, from real people [ remember I am that old fashioned person from the early 80's] and as I said I just use the Internet to Chat.
I tend to encourage folk to continue to learn in the real world, as I genuinely feel Bonsai is a hands on situation.

Nor do I truly believe that a 3d object can be viewed or critiqued from a 2d image/s.
Which is why I mentioned the AUSbonsai 3d feature.
Apologies once again.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[JudyB]

Anthony,
I'm unsure of what your apology is for...
But I thank you for the sentiment no matter why.

There are those of us (myself included) who have mostly taught themselves by way of books, and internet forums, and blogs and images. If you are driven, and motivated to better your craft (no matter what it is) there is always more than one way to get to the next level. In this sort of venue, it's just a matter of sorting out the good and bad information.

I agree it is difficult to really see the tree from 2d. But what I've noticed is that you see the flaws of the tree in a big way in 2d. This can actually be beneficial to find how to move forward. But the charm of the tree is largely missing, which can't be helped. You do the best you can with the tools you have.

 

[Poink88]

There are those of us (myself included) who have mostly taught themselves by way of books, and internet forums, and blogs and images. If you are driven, and motivated to better your craft (no matter what it is) there is always more than one way to get to the next level. In this sort of venue, it's just a matter of sorting out the good and bad information.

I agree it is difficult to really see the tree from 2d. But what I've noticed is that you see the flaws of the tree in a big way in 2d. This can actually be beneficial to find how to move forward. But the charm of the tree is largely missing, which can't be helped. You do the best you can with the tools you have.

I agree

Just to add, sorting good from bad info is true anywhere...even from books and "masters" (notice they have different styles/methods?) There is only one best for your tree and situation, finding that may always remain a mystery. That is what makes this hobby unique and interesting.

 

[Lazylightningny]

There is a wealth of information on this forum for those willing to listen, watch, and learn, and to post intelligent, humble queries.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Anthony,
I'm unsure of what your apology is for...
But I thank you for the sentiment no matter why.

There are those of us (myself included) who have mostly taught themselves by way of books, and internet forums, and blogs and images. If you are driven, and motivated to better your craft (no matter what it is) there is always more than one way to get to the next level. In this sort of venue, it's just a matter of sorting out the good and bad information.

I agree it is difficult to really see the tree from 2d. But what I've noticed is that you see the flaws of the tree in a big way in 2d. This can actually be beneficial to find how to move forward. But the charm of the tree is largely missing, which can't be helped. You do the best you can with the tools you have.

Glad to hear of this...I have access to very little shows and classes..I refuse to drive 2 1/2 hours
one way...when I also hate driving on the highway. I have a very small doorway of opportunity to a gentleman an hour away...who is on a bonsai club that meets 2 1/2 hours from me. Yet occassionally they meet at his place of business. (Which I would drive to just over an hour from me to this establishment) Where he occassionally has classes and meetings for the bonsai club on rare occasions. So Internet...and reading open up a larger area of access to broaden my knowledge. He is a wholesaler in the bonsai world.

I see some trees...that are traditionally styled...then some artists go outside the box...and do something exceptionally amazing with a similar tree. And I am in awe of those methods at times...some times I don't see where they wanted to go with it...but I am so new to this...but I do enjoy out of the box styling methods. As the one photo I posted of the weeping bottlebrush with bare branches other than the very ends had foliage on them. That intrigues me...and really has me sitting up and admiring.

I continue to read...all sorts of online information. But must say...I am itching to wire something. As well as...looking forward to spring when I can actually meet up with experienced bonsai folk and get to pick their brains in person. As well as looking forward to my first workshop. Which I'll take no matter the subject matter...to just become more familiar with the bonsai world and how things are done.

 

[Anthony]

The problem with 2d, isn't that it brings forward problems.The camera has but one eye, we use two to see.

So you are normally looking at a flattened, fattened image, and if you are sculpting, your tree just ends up horrible. It would be worse if you were looking at colour, in this case pot colours.

Also, as I wrote to Gerhard, most forums have all of their important information, locked in the first 2 to 5 years. One you learn how to keep a tree healthy, and learn the 1,2,3. for volume in branches, the forum becomes a place to sit and chat.
Been on forums since 1998, and the pattern keeps repeating itself.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

Oh dear - chuckle,

now that is the problem - itching to wire or cut or root prune.

How about itching to learn how to keep healthy, for 3 to 5 years.

Just in case your wondering, the itch, is what keeps most folk back.
Good Day
Anthony

* Oh yes and that Avant Guarde look, I want my bonsai to be different, everyone will think I am special- perhaps an Artist - teasing here - chuckle.

The tree is already individual, just listen and learn from the tree.

 

[Cadillactaste]

The problem with 2d, isn't that it brings forward problems.The camera has but one eye, we use two to see.

So you are normally looking at a flattened, fattened image, and if you are sculpting, your tree just ends up horrible. It would be worse if you were looking at colour, in this case pot colours.

Also, as I wrote to Gerhard, most forums have all of their important information, locked in the first 2 to 5 years. One you learn how to keep a tree healthy, and learn the 1,2,3. for volume in branches, the forum becomes a place to sit and chat.
Been on forums since 1998, and the pattern keeps repeating itself.
Good Day
Anthony

Since I took advanced art in school...I do agree with the concept your trying to get across...

 

[Poink88]

now that is the problem - itching to wire or cut or root prune.

How about itching to learn how to keep healthy, for 3 to 5 years.

As posted, I just celebrated my 2nd year in bonsai (mostly self taught) but boy did I scratch that itch....and it felt goooooood!!!! LOL

 

[Cadillactaste]

Oh dear - chuckle,

now that is the problem - itching to wire or cut or root prune.

How about itching to learn how to keep healthy, for 3 to 5 years.

Just in case your wondering, the itch, is what keeps most folk back.
Good Day
Anthony

* Oh yes and that Avant Guarde look, I want my bonsai to be different, everyone will think I am special- perhaps an Artist - teasing here - chuckle.

The tree is already individual, just listen and learn from the tree.

Just wire...to see creativity in an object and bring it to life...(weeping form style) no...to cutting or root pruning. I am so new I would worry I cut off a very vital branch to a design I yet to see. But I am a very visual person...(so glad my juniper has several years to grow out...so I can develop a style I may wish to bring out in it...before I ruin it attempting something I have no clue what I am about) but I was thinking...weeping is just bending branches to a weeping form. Not as difficult as attempting to create say...the more complex bonsai structures. Am I incorrect in my way of thinking then?

So question to you...if one would purchase a tree...say bottlebrush. In hopes to do a weeping style. You are suggesting keeping it alive then for 3-5 years...without wiring it then? And...leave it just grow without trimming or what have you? I am curious to get your thoughts on this...

As to showing others I am different...not sure that is it...but...just to see what I am capable of. A challenge to myself. I would be torn as to needing ones advice if I did it properly...yet...shy in my own work. I can take criticism because that is how one learns...but I would do it simply for my own desire to do so...yet...now...you offer food for thought with your comments. I am pondering my next steps...

You say...the itch is what holds most people back...how so? I am intrigued...holding one back in they don't learn proper technique?

Laughing at your "that Avant Guarde look"...loved it!

 

[Anthony]

See Darlene,

you proved my point - experience - you already knew about the camera bit - and could appreciate it, so no resistance to an idea.
Interesting that you should state - Advanced Art class.

How many will resist or ignore what I said about the camera or could not understand my pointing to the 3d programme at Ausbonsai?

Dario,

remember you kinda of cooked the books - big trunks to start with - what I will observe with you is how you harmonise the branches and roots [ proportion to the big trunk ] and the potential scars that have to be healed or made decorative.

And you prove the other point ------ impatience ------- also to be observed ----- is how healthy they all remain.

Patience is used for things that one does not enjoy doing.

But you have a gift/ability and will most probably get away -----and --- teasing - encourage many others [ with no gift or little ] to do the same.
You won't even have to speak, your work will do it -- chuckle.

Good Day
Anthony

 

[Cadillactaste]

See Darlene,

you proved my point - experience - you already knew about the camera bit - and could appreciate it, so no resistance to an idea.
Interesting that you should state - Advanced Art class.

How many will resist or ignore what I said about the camera or could not understand my pointing to the 3d programme at Ausbonsai?

Good Day
Anthony

It was a heavily debated topic in class which is why I mentioned it...I understood it...many didn't grasp it. Still life over a 2D object...when attempting to mimic what you see...you get better results from still life which is 3D. It goes back to what you were saying.

Not that one can't get some amazing work from 2D...you can just better define it taking a step further with 3D.

 

[Anthony]

Darlene,

Khaimraj explained that to me a while ago. The problem started with the Old Master [ Da Vinci, Titian, Rubens, Vermeer......] They drew from direct observation, and even with the direct observation, would add in their manner [ how they felt it would harmonise better ]

So if ever you tried to create one of their paintings in reality, it would not work. This has been tried before.

The argument then became, if the Old Masters changed as they wished, what is so wrong with working an image only from a photo.

The debate continues, and it also allows folk who cannot draw or paint [ technically well ] to work and sell. The purchaser of the work must decide how much they are willing to pay.

History will decide if it is univeral enough in message, to end up on museum walls.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[MidMichBonsai]

Because I know that 3D is the best way to learn and because there is no club within 1 hour drive of me, I had a dilemma. That didn't stop me. I decided to start my own club! I got in touch with 3 or 4 interested folks, we had a pre-meeting show through which we generated interest. I have a contact list of over 15. Our first show is this Monday.

While I know there are no masters in the bunch, with dues and as a team, we can learn more and accomplish more than flying solo behind a computer. While that is how I have primarily learned thus far, I'm excited to move on to the next step: demonstrations, workshops, etc. This is something a club can offer that and individual will find much more difficult to accomplish.

I will let you know how it goes.

Always learning,
Dan

 

[Anthony]

Yes, Dan,

we to started off with 7 friends, back in 87 or so. Rose to over 200 as a Society and as the two elders aged, dropped back to 25.

Unfortunately folk on our side are very much into - we thing - and that is a major problem.

Well you would be able with time to bring in those more advanced in Bonsai to teach/show.
Well done!!
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Dan W.]

Anthony, I'm not sure you understood Judy's comment about 2d... No one is suggesting that 2d is better than 3d. But if used correctly, taking a picture of a 3d creation can help us to see things from a different perspective. Often this allows us to see a flaw that was not apparent when viewing a tree in 3d. Great bonsai is all about the details, and sometimes a camera just might help to bring out a few details that need attention. The idea is to create in 3d, but use 2d only as another lens of perspective. I have learned this both from experience and very talented artists; and it has been very helpful.

Have a good day Anthony
Dan

 

[berobinson82]

Side note:

This little program here makes it easy to make a .gif file which could be used to make a rotating 3D image. You can do it in photoshop also. Would anyone be interested in a tutorial on how to use this to better display their bonsai? I have no kids this weekend and plenty of free time after the honey-do list is complete.

http://gifmaker.me/

 

[coh]

While a photo will compress the image and doesn't reproduce the full 3-d effect, looking at a photo of a tree (or anything, really) can be like looking at it with a fresh set of eyes, or through someone else's eyes.

Another way to get this effect is to place the tree in an out of the way location and not look at it for a while...then when you see it again it can be like seeing it for the first time. I'm a painter, and I do this all the time with paintings. It can be quite effective.

Chris

 

[dick benbow]

As A young man, I liked to climb mountains. many was the time you'd be so weary and thinking just around the next rise would be the top, only to discover, you had more to go.

I think of those days now and draw a certain mentality from them as it applies to my love of japanese hobbies. koi, Bonsai, suiseki..and that is the more you learn the more you really understand there is more to learn. Like mountain climbing, you may be getting closer but the vista continually opens up.

I also see an understanding as I'm helping the grand kids learn to ride their bike. Once they get enough falls in and gain confidence, they just take off. Kinda like mentoring someone in bonsai.
The trick is to know when to let go of the fender when the confidence is well founded.

As someone who loves to teach what you learn, teaching is about being a good student yourself
and being able to read your student to know when and how to get the message across based
on the latent skills of the student.

Students like shoes, don't all come the same size or learning abilities....

 

[Anthony]

Dan,

thanks for the information. Brother-in -law is also a painter, who also had sculpture training.

What I image for him, and what is there in reality, is so totally different, that it is useless to try and show anything, save to say, look I did something.

Presently the guys who are local on the forums, are coming over and saying, wow, that is different, doesn't look anything like the image on the computer screens.

I gave up a long time ago trying to send images that are true representations of his work.
Same happens with Traditional oil painting, so most painters just talk about composition and beginning sketches.

As an example, years ago he showed me in the National Gallery, London, what happens to Caravaggio's Supper at Emmaus, in quality photos.
Caravaggio looks weird.

However as the camera becomes more common in the 19th Century, paintings take on a photographic look and are easier to image.
Most folk today, growing up with cameras, tvs, periodicals, now have flat image eyes and can't really see, as they used to before the one eyed monster.
[ Chris, I am not including you in any of this, just passing on what I have seen and had explained to me.]

Good Day
Anthony