An Ode to Big Box Maples

dbonsaiw

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There is a ton of discussion here on what type of material to purchase and big box trees tend to get a bad rap. So I thought I'd start a thread singing the praises of big box maples and see what the experience of others has been.

I have found that, with the exception of pricier trees grown specifically as bonsai, there is little difference between run of the mill "pre-bonsai" and a big box maple. There has simply been no root work or other bonsai-related work actually done to the trees. Much of what is sold as "pre-bonsai" is simply younger trees in potting soil - perhaps a worse version of the big box tree. The downsides of the big box trees are that they tend to be pot bound and have no lower branching. Neither of these have presented an actual issue. Roots will need to be hard pruned in any event and the tree repotted into bonsai soil. The pot bound issue is therefore solved rather quickly. I also purchase the big box tree to chop them down, so I am depending upon back budding and not existing branches (although that would obviously be better).

On the upsides, the price is right. Early season seems to be about $60, going down to $30 in the summer and then to $15 in the fall. I've purchased most of these at the $15 level and overwintered them, and the one other was "defective" so they gave it to me for like $15 as well. I get the sense that these trees are displaying survival of the fittest. No one is caring for these trees anywhere near the way we do. The ones that make it to the store tend to be tanks that aren't that easy to kill (and I seem to be trying). What draws my eye is the trunk - they are easily 1.5" in diameter and I've found larger. I will need to grow my "better stock" seedling for years to get them to this point. I question how much further along, if at all, I will be with the seedling once it has a 2" diameter. I could very well be wrong on this, but I believe in 5 years the big box tree will be further along than the quality, more expensive seedling.

I will also note that many of the nicest trees I've seen here had a good deal of grafting done to get the nebari and branching to that point. I plan to do the same on the big box trees.

I firmly believe that there is no substitute for practice and learning from mistakes. Although I don't like to lose any trees, I'd rather lose a cheaper tree than a more expensive one. I can buy a number of big box trees for the price of one quality seedling and practice to my heart's content without fear. As Drago said, "if he dies, he dies". But they haven't. And I now have more confidence to work on better material. There's only so many questions one can ask on Bonsai Nut - at some point you gotta just chop a trunk and see for yourself what happens.

Finally, it is a great source of additional material. Although I have not yet done this, many trees can be layered off the $15 big box investment. Not to mention all the cuttings that can be had (this I've done).
 

Canada Bonsai

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Garden Center Material
I have yet to find a Japanese Maple at a garden center with roots that met my standards. All Japanese Maples that I buy from garden centres for bonsai are bought knowing that they will be air layered. That said, very rarely are they layered right above the graft junction (and it puzzles me to see this recommended so frequently in this forum). Rather, I am developing and then removing apexes. This requires more planning, and more patience, but you ultimately end up with better material. This is what a large number of growers in Japan do. It is also what Danny Use does, which was key in allowing him to develop one of the best Japanese Maple collections in the world within a single lifetime.

Pre-Bonsai
High quality pre-bonsai will have roots, movement, and internodes that are appropriate for bonsai. The situation in the USA is very confusing to me because some of the most respected professionals allow themselves to sell absolute garbage online (esp. Facebook auctions) as 'pre-bonsai'. I suspect that it confuses a lot of people who understandably trust that this is what 'pre-bonsai' is given the reputation of the vendor. However, high quality pre-bonsai material does exist in the USA.

I attached 3 images of Japanese Maple pre-bonsai that I imported from Japan in 2022. The Kiyo Hime, Beni Chidori, and Deshojo all have roots on the 360-degree circumference (see link below for the Kiyo Hime). They also have low movement, and lots of options provided by branches and internodes.

The 4th image is an Arakawa from a garden center.

If you understand how to build a Japanese Maple in the range of 60-90cm like we see in Kokufu, then the advantage of pre-bonsai material is undeniable if we are talking about building a tree using the bones that are visually present. However, carefully developing material from garden centres to strategically remove air layers can result in absolutely excellent material that is just as good of a starting point as high quality pre-bonsai material.


Maple Bonsai

There are many ways to have fun creating bonsai with Japanese Maples. A lot of the conversation about what kind of material is appropriate for bonsai comes down to understanding, vision, taste, and standards. It's important that there are people at all levels enjoying Japanese Maples as bonsai in different ways. Personally, Kokufu is my standard for Japanese Maples -- luckily, there are no secrets as to how to create them if one wants to; it has been done thousands of times over and over and the information is widely available.
 

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Frozentreehugger

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Everything you have said n me makes perfect sense to me . Except the price . 😡😡😡😡😡here some is native easier to get abs some is grown in greenhouses . To combat the extreme cold . But the vast majority of stuff any interest to bonsai people is imported every spring . From the USA Are friend Covid changed that hard to get anything . And prices are bad they claim it may be better this year . Early spring heat now . I went to a specialty conifer nursery in the fall . He imports from nurseries USA northwest . Asked if I could piggy back his order and custom order some stuff . I thought he was going to have a heart attack laughing 😂 . Said he would be lucky if he gets anything ti sell looked on weekend at his stuff online a pile of red marks no stock beside most stuff
 

Frozentreehugger

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Garden Center Material
I have yet to find a Japanese Maple at a garden center with roots that met my standards. All Japanese Maples that I buy from garden centres for bonsai are bought knowing that they will be air layered. That said, very rarely are they layered right above the graft junction (and it puzzles me to see this recommended so frequently in this forum). Rather, I am developing and then removing apexes. This requires more planning, and more patience, but you ultimately end up with better material. This is what a large number of growers in Japan do. It is also what Danny Use does, which was key in allowing him to develop one of the best Japanese Maple collections in the world within a single lifetime.

Pre-Bonsai
High quality pre-bonsai will have roots, movement, and internodes that are appropriate for bonsai. The situation in the USA is very confusing to me because some of the most respected professionals allow themselves to sell absolute garbage online (esp. Facebook auctions) as 'pre-bonsai'. I suspect that it confuses a lot of people who understandably trust that this is what 'pre-bonsai' is given the reputation of the vendor. However, high quality pre-bonsai material does exist in the USA.

I attached 3 images of Japanese Maple pre-bonsai that I imported from Japan in 2022. The Kiyo Hime, Beni Chidori, and Deshojo all have roots on the 360-degree circumference (see link below for the Kiyo Hime). They also have low movement, and lots of options provided by branches and internodes.

The 4th image is an Arakawa from a garden center.

If you understand how to build a Japanese Maple in the range of 60-90cm like we see in Kokufu, then the advantage of pre-bonsai material is undeniable if we are talking about building a tree using the bones that are visually present. However, carefully developing material from garden centres to strategically remove air layers can result in absolutely excellent material that is just as good of a starting point as high quality pre-bonsai material.


Maple Bonsai

There are many ways to have fun creating bonsai with Japanese Maples. A lot of the conversation about what kind of material is appropriate for bonsai comes down to understanding, vision, taste, and standards. It's important that there are people at all levels enjoying Japanese Maples as bonsai in different ways. Personally, Kokufu is my standard for Japanese Maples -- luckily, there are no secrets as to how to create them if one wants to; it has been done thousands of times over and over and the information is widely available.
Here In Ottawa zone 4 only specialty nurseries have Japanese maple . Only place I know to get good cultivars is from you . Some normal nurseries have some stock but it’s normally crap and no idea who they sell it to as a garden plant in zone 4
 

dbonsaiw

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A lot of the conversation about what kind of material is appropriate for bonsai comes down to understanding, vision, taste, and standards.
Perhaps its a bit presumptuous to say so early in my bonsai adventures, but I'd like to hold my trees to the highest standards possible. I tend to be interested in developing larger sized bonsai. Having yet to develop an actual bonsai, I do not fully appreciate the process and what is the most ideal/bang-for-your-buck starting point. I attach pics of three maples I am working on. The first is a nursery stock maple onto which a laceleaf was grafted (it has been cut back to the rootstock). The rootstock branch was little more than a bud last fall, but the nebari was nice. Trunk is 2.3" thick and root spread is at least 4.5" - mostly on two sides (I covered part in soil). On fall sale, it was $100. The second is a big box maple for $15. Trunk is thinner at about 1.5" and nebari is basically what you see. Third is a pygmy maple from what I consider to be a premier bonsai shop. I believe it was $80. The nebari is radial (and buried). Very obvious lower branch and it's budding. Maybe 0.5" trunk. (I understand it's a pygmy and a bad example for this given that it will not grow at the same pace as the others). Each tree will require a certain size, movement and taper, as well as nebari development. The nursery maple is big enough for me to begin growing a new leader lower down to create movement and taper. I'll end up doing the same with the big box. Both will get some root grafting. The "better" stock will take me years to grow out to their size. Which will find its way into a bonsai pot first, assuming I'm going for the same-ish size and style? I'm assuming that even if I ground layer the big box, that one will be a bonsai before the pygmy has a chance to catch up (even if it wasn't a pygmy).
 

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rockm

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There is a ton of discussion here on what type of material to purchase and big box trees tend to get a bad rap. So I thought I'd start a thread singing the praises of big box maples and see what the experience of others has been.

I have found that, with the exception of pricier trees grown specifically as bonsai, there is little difference between run of the mill "pre-bonsai" and a big box maple. There has simply been no root work or other bonsai-related work actually done to the trees. Much of what is sold as "pre-bonsai" is simply younger trees in potting soil - perhaps a worse version of the big box tree. The downsides of the big box trees are that they tend to be pot bound and have no lower branching. Neither of these have presented an actual issue. Roots will need to be hard pruned in any event and the tree repotted into bonsai soil. The pot bound issue is therefore solved rather quickly. I also purchase the big box tree to chop them down, so I am depending upon back budding and not existing branches (although that would obviously be better).

On the upsides, the price is right. Early season seems to be about $60, going down to $30 in the summer and then to $15 in the fall. I've purchased most of these at the $15 level and overwintered them, and the one other was "defective" so they gave it to me for like $15 as well. I get the sense that these trees are displaying survival of the fittest. No one is caring for these trees anywhere near the way we do. The ones that make it to the store tend to be tanks that aren't that easy to kill (and I seem to be trying). What draws my eye is the trunk - they are easily 1.5" in diameter and I've found larger. I will need to grow my "better stock" seedling for years to get them to this point. I question how much further along, if at all, I will be with the seedling once it has a 2" diameter. I could very well be wrong on this, but I believe in 5 years the big box tree will be further along than the quality, more expensive seedling.

I will also note that many of the nicest trees I've seen here had a good deal of grafting done to get the nebari and branching to that point. I plan to do the same on the big box trees.

I firmly believe that there is no substitute for practice and learning from mistakes. Although I don't like to lose any trees, I'd rather lose a cheaper tree than a more expensive one. I can buy a number of big box trees for the price of one quality seedling and practice to my heart's content without fear. As Drago said, "if he dies, he dies". But they haven't. And I now have more confidence to work on better material. There's only so many questions one can ask on Bonsai Nut - at some point you gotta just chop a trunk and see for yourself what happens.

Finally, it is a great source of additional material. Although I have not yet done this, many trees can be layered off the $15 big box investment. Not to mention all the cuttings that can be had (this I've done).
Box store maples CAN be a decent source, but mostly they tend to be junk. The assumption that five years down the line they will be superior to quality more expensive seedlings is a huge leap. Mostly ANY development along those line depends on YOU not the material really. Finding a decent source for decent prebonsai stock can be a challenge when you don't know where to look and when.

FWIW, if you really want a price break go to an ACTUAL nursery and look in the sale bins at the end of the summer. I've picked up 4 inch diameter, $500 maples for $25 bucks because at summer's end at such places. JM leaves tend to be burned to a crisp and uninformed buyers think they're dead. THey're unsellable and the nursery doesn't want to spend the $$ to overwinter them.

I gave up on big box store maples a very long time ago. Yes, "prebonsai" maples (purchased wisely) are superior to big box store maples,
 

dbonsaiw

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Yes, "prebonsai" maples (purchased wisely) are superior to big box store maples,
This makes sense. I shouldn’t be comparing the better pencil thin material to the big box, but rather simply better material than the big box, including size.
if you really want a price break go to an ACTUAL nursery and look in the sale bins at the end of the summer. I've picked up 4 inch diameter, $500 maples for $25 bucks because at summer's end at such places.
I’m seeing that with others experience. In my area of NY, nothing is $25 except maybe the nursery pot. At some point it will be worth it for me to take a drive and pack the car with material.
 

rockm

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This makes sense. I shouldn’t be comparing the better pencil thin material to the big box, but rather simply better material than the big box, including size.

I’m seeing that with others experience. In my area of NY, nothing is $25 except maybe the nursery pot. At some point it will be worth it for me to take a drive and pack the car with material.
Uh, I live in an area that has one of the highest costs-of-living in the U.S...Decent independent nurseries (the chain nurseries can have stuff too, but it's usually not as good) around here are hugely expensive here as the folks buying stuff have huge houses. Nevertheless, I've found those kinds of bargains in the sales bin. It takes some experience to know when to go and look (end of August into September) AND it's a crap shoot as to what will be there (lots and lots of doomed junk or useless stuff at times), but it's worth looking.

BTW, have you gotten up to Bill Valavanis' place?
 

dbonsaiw

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BTW, have you gotten up to Bill Valavanis' place?
Planning a trip for later in the year. I did hit him up for a bunch of trees though. He sent really nice stuff.
 

dbonsaiw

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Having now spent a decent amount of time with my big box maples, I wanted to update this thread to give some better advice on how to go about developing big box maples.

Big box trees are sold for landscaping purposes, not bonsai. To get the tree to a place where it is actually growing as a bonsai will take some time and care. First things first - big box trees are typically stick straight. Unless you intend to develop a tree with a really straight trunk, and irrespective of anything I may have said above to the contrary, you will likely want to stay away from developing these trees for the simple reason that it will take way too long to reduce the trunk down low enough to introduce movement and then rebuild the tree from there. Better to start with a smaller caliper trunk with some movement and employ a "cut and grow" method to increase its size and ramification.

Assuming you find a trunk you want to work with, my limited experience has demonstrated to me that getting the big box tree to grow as a bonsai is not as simple as pruning it down hard and waiting for a bunch of back-budding. I purchased 5 big box maples last year and one this year. One of the trees has been allowed to grow out as I attempt to bend the trunk with medieval torture devices. The other 5 were blind pruned to various heights leaving no branches. Two of these succumbed to their wounds fairly quickly as they were cut way too low. One may finally be putting out a single bud and one only has 2 shoots growing on one side basically at the nebari. The 5th is doing well and is the subject of my Acer HomeDepotnium #2 thread. It too only grew buds in the lower 4 inches of the trunk (happens to be what I wanted for this tree, but that's not ideal generally and demonstrates to me that I did something wrong). These last 3 were all pruned down to about 11 inches or so (from 5+ feet).

One out of five JM trees doing well is a fail in my book. So what went wrong? Although big box trees leave much to be desired, I blame myself for the poor performance of these trees. And the inescapable conclusion is that I did too much too fast. And this breaks down to root work and branch/trunk work. The 4 trees that failed/are failing had their roots severely pruned in early spring - everything removed except a small radial root system. It shouldn't come as much of a surprise that the one tree that is doing well has a far larger root system than the others. So I have come to the conclusion that getting a big box maple set up to grow as a bonsai must be done in stages. (There is nothing wrong with these JMs as trees - the one that I did not cut is growing huge in a 6 gallon pot).

My advice is as follows: Starting in late winter/early spring, the tree must be repotted. Big box maples are horribly root bound and this needs to be rectified ASAP. I would start by turning the tree on its side and sawing off about 1/3 of the bottom. Comb out the root ball to free up the roots, but I wouldn't completely bare root it at this point. Lightly trim the combed out roots so it fits in the new container. Obviously oversized roots can also be cut back. The purpose of this is to begin the reduction of the roots and to get them growing radially. We are also leaving more than enough to power the tree.

I have also come to appreciate that the blind chop is just too risky - you never know where the buds will grow or if they will grow at all. So, when repotting for the first time, reduce the trunk as much as you can, but make sure you leave branches to feed your trunk on all sides to prevent unwanted die back. The tree should send out lower shoots. Later in the season, the all shoots can be pruned back to further increase ramification and perhaps more backbudding. That's all for year one if you want to be on the safe side and do better than 1 out of 5.

In year 2, the tree can be repotted again, this time removing the entirety of the tap root and down growing roots. The nebari is now set for bonsai development. The trunk can be pruned down again, ensuring that there are ample existing branches left over. Prune back as before to increase ramification and backbudding. This process is repeated yearly until the trunk is reduced to the desired height. At that point, a new leader can be grown and the process of developing the tree can begin in earnest.

In short, I would say it takes at least 2 years to turn a big box landscape tree into a pre-bonsai, and perhaps longer. Live and learn.
 

Wulfskaar

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Here is my one and only Lowes maple:
https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/wulfskaars-shishigashira-maple-lions-head.50792/

This one has low branches already; not the tall, skinny trunk that I mostly see in the big box stores. I have not wanted to risk spending money on those, so I walk right by them. The main problem with mine is that it's grafted, so eventually, I will have to air layer it. My plan is to air layer some of the branches to increase my stock, then later go for the main trunk. I did go ahead and heavily prune the roots and put in good soil, but those roots are not likely to be a part of any future bonsai.

Working this maple has been fun and educational, so to me, it's not a waste of time. However, in the future, I may pay extra to save a couple years of development time.
 

Lorax7

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You can get inexpensive Japanese maples at big box stores that can be turned into bonsai via air layering, but you need to be armed with some knowledge about which cultivars are suitable when you go to shop there. Big box stores sell trees aimed at the landscaping market and, often, that means many of the cultivars they sell are not so good for bonsai because traits that are desirable for landscape (fast growing apically dominant trees with big leaves and long internodes) are exactly what you typically don't want for bonsai. Big box stores tend to have lots of Bloodgood and Emperor I, as well as Crimson Queen and other laceleaf varieties. You need to know what you're looking for, so you take home that one shishigashira they have sitting neglected in the corner instead of one of the dozens of Bloodgoods that are featured prominently adjacent to the checkout lane.
 

dbonsaiw

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Just wanted to give a head's up that HD sells regular JMs (as well as various grafted cultivars) online for $50 in 3 gallon pots. For me, this is the best/cheapest JM starting material. I could get a sapling for $15 or a stick for $50+ or a full-on tree with some caliper for $50. They all bring me to the ground floor of JM development, but the HD will save me a number of years.
 
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