Ancient Bonsai vs Todays Bonsai...

[Bolero]

Ancient Bonsai vs Today's Bonsai

When I observe, in Books, the Ancient Bonsai of China and Japan I am amazed at how they were able to Grow, Sculpt and Preserve their Bonsai.

I've noticed that they were primarily Juniper, Pine then Maple and not necessarily pre-occupied with DeadWood adornment but rather the tree itself showing in a Classical manner...

Now Todays Bonsai, and some by Bonsai Masters can't seem to put a Tree in a pot without covering it with DeadWood or DriftWood and in most cases Disfiguring and Distorting the Tree to show some sort of extream Weathering in order to Justify the DeadWood...

I'm curious as to what others think about my Opinion...

 

[Dav4]

Ancient Bonsai vs Today's Bonsai

When I observe, in Books, the Ancient Bonsai of China and Japan I am amazed at how they were able to Grow, Sculpt and Preserve their Bonsai.

I've noticed that they were primarily Juniper, Pine then Maple and not necessarily pre-occupied with DeadWood adornment but rather the tree itself showing in a Classical manner...

Now Todays Bonsai, and some by Bonsai Masters can't seem to put a Tree in a pot without covering it with DeadWood or DriftWood and in most cases Disfiguring and Distorting the Tree to show some sort of extream Weathering in order to Justify the DeadWood...

I'm curious as to what others think about my Opinion...

Can you please post examples of these Ancient Bonsai of China and Japan? Without those images, I can only speculate as to what you're basing your opinion upon.

 

[Anthony]

From what the Chinese ink painters portrayed, the trees are very beautiful.
As to if those were real trees ?
Or images painted to fit into compositions ?

There is also a written tale of a Cultured Chinese Man purchasing the fruit
tree Bonsai and releasing them into his yard.
Which must have been an extremely large yard.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[GrimLore]

I'm curious as to what others think about my Opinion...

What I "think" you are referring to is text book Bonsai as being the old classic styles or portrayal.

What you are seeing today is indeed quite different, radical bends, carving, etc...

BUT -

If you really look even way back in time some experimented as we do today. I have seen very old plants for example not only with a figure as a dragon or snake carved in but also painted much like a colored tattoo. Others have grown stones into the trunk, and more.

SO -

One can conform to the old standards or slip off the path a bit and enjoy either way - whatever you choose is personal preference

Grimmy

 

[rockm]

have no idea what your talking about as "ancient" bonsai without deadwood. Here's a ukiyo e print from Torii Kiyonaga from the 1700's

Note the biggest one is an ume with plenty of deadwood.

 

[Wilson]

I seem to see tons of beautiful bonsai with, and without deadwood. We are blessed to have so much at our finger tips!

 

[just.wing.it]

I think maybe what you're getting at, @Bolero , is more to do with the styling than the presence or lack of deadwood.
I've seen many old pics in books of Chinese scrolls where the tree's generally seem smaller, and more natural looking, and sometimes more angular due to clip and grow.

And the focal point of those trees is not the dead wood, but today may artists use dead wood as a maim focal point, even though it may not be necessary.

Am I close??
.........
But here is an amazing tree that is supposed to be like 800+ years old, with wild and crazy deadwood...

I wonder what it looked like when it was collected 8 centuries ago....

 

[Adair M]

I think maybe what you're getting at, @Bolero , is more to do with the styling than the presence or lack of deadwood.
I've seen many old pics in books of Chinese scrolls where the tree's generally seem smaller, and more natural looking, and sometimes more angular due to clip and grow.

And the focal point of those trees is not the dead wood, but today may artists use dead wood as a maim focal point, even though it may not be necessary.

Am I close??
.........
But here is an amazing tree that is supposed to be like 800+ years old, with wild and crazy deadwood...
View attachment 162697
I wonder what it looked like when it was collected 8 centuries ago....

Was it collected 800 years ago? Or was it a 700 year old tree collected 100 years ago?

 

[Vin]

Seems like a case of "Post and Run" to me.

 

[just.wing.it]

Was it collected 800 years ago? Or was it a 700 year old tree collected 100 years ago?

No clue, glad you said that though!
I still winder what it looked like .....
I always wonder that when reading about old trees, sometimes they just don't give those details....
I haven't read too much on this particular tree.
I know it's famous!

 

[just.wing.it]

Seems like a case of "Post and Run" to me.

Lol! Sorry vin, had some work, and traffic, and dinner to tend to for a bit there....
I'm here!

 

[Victorim]

Lol! Sorry vin, had some work, and traffic, and dinner to tend to for a bit there....
I'm here!

I don't think vin was referring to you bud.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

But here is an amazing tree that is supposed to be like 800+ years old, with wild and crazy deadwood...
View attachment 162697
I wonder what it looked like when it was collected 8 centuries ago....

Probably collected in the last 1800s to early 1900s. They weren’t “discovered” until about the 1860s. I pieced together a cool article on the early days of yamadori Shimpaku hunting in Japan. The pix include some very old Bonsai. Don’t know if I’d call the photos examples of ancient Bonsai, but definitely old. Yep, there is a difference, and fortunately there is a place for all.
https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/the-shimpaku-juniper-its-secret-history-from-kindai-shuppan-2003/

 

[just.wing.it]

Probably collected in the last 1800s to early 1900s. They weren’t “discovered” until about the 1860s. I pieced together a cool article on the early days of yamadori Shimpaku hunting in Japan. The pix include some very old Bonsai. Don’t know if I’d call the photos examples of ancient Bonsai, but definitely old. Yep, there is a difference, and fortunately there is a place for all.
https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/the-shimpaku-juniper-its-secret-history-from-kindai-shuppan-2003/

You know that tree in DC, the one that survived the Hiroshima blast, it's a j. white pine, trunk like a telephone pole....
I think the plaque on it says it's been a bonsai since 1625...and doesn't refer to its approximate age before collection.

 

[just.wing.it]

I don't think vin was referring to you bud.

I started to think that after I replied....
But said, f it.

 

[Adair M]

Ancient Bonsai vs Today's Bonsai

When I observe, in Books, the Ancient Bonsai of China and Japan I am amazed at how they were able to Grow, Sculpt and Preserve their Bonsai.

I've noticed that they were primarily Juniper, Pine then Maple and not necessarily pre-occupied with DeadWood adornment but rather the tree itself showing in a Classical manner...

Now Todays Bonsai, and some by Bonsai Masters can't seem to put a Tree in a pot without covering it with DeadWood or DriftWood and in most cases Disfiguring and Distorting the Tree to show some sort of extream Weathering in order to Justify the DeadWood...

I'm curious as to what others think about my Opinion...

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this post.

If you are saying that the ancients didn't have bonsai with deadwood, let's try to figure out why. Trees with prominent deadwood are old. Their feeder roots are farther away from the trunk. They are difficult to collect, and have them live. Trees without deadwood? Probably younger. Healthier, and with root systems closer to the trunk. I suspect that many, if not most, of the early collected trees died.

Last month, I went hiking up in the Sierras. Saw lots and lots of 1000 and 2000 year old trees. Tons of deadwood. Trees like that don't exist here in Georgia. But they sure do in California, Nevada and other places.

 

[Adair M]

See this tree?



Amazing deadwood. Can you see the little crack in the rock that goes down on the right? Well, that's where the root goes. And goes, and goes... The roots are at least 40 feet down, wedged in between the rocks! No way it could be collected.

 

[coh]

See this tree?

View attachment 162730

Amazing deadwood. Can you see the little crack in the rock that goes down on the right? Well, that's where the root goes. And goes, and goes... The roots are at least 40 feet down, wedged in between the rocks! No way it could be collected.

Interesting...wild deadwood topped by a green helmet...

 

[Ry2Tree2]

Probably collected in the last 1800s to early 1900s. They weren’t “discovered” until about the 1860s. I pieced together a cool article on the early days of yamadori Shimpaku hunting in Japan. The pix include some very old Bonsai. Don’t know if I’d call the photos examples of ancient Bonsai, but definitely old. Yep, there is a difference, and fortunately there is a place for all.
https://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/the-shimpaku-juniper-its-secret-history-from-kindai-shuppan-2003/

Thank you for consolidating all that information. The old pictures are amazing to see.

 

[Adair M]

Interesting...wild deadwood topped by a green helmet...

Imagine that! Pads of foliage on top of pads.

I got up under it on the right side, and looked up at the branch structure. Amazing!

And that apex!


That's a Sierra Juniper. All the ones at Boon's are more blue. But all these on the mountain were all green. Boon says they are green when collected, but turn blue "in captivity" at closer to sea level. We were at about 8000 to 9000 feet in elevation.