Another flame... sorry, fertiliser thread.

[Gustaf]

So, I was reading up on fertilising the other day and I realised that there is a big discrepancy between the practices of bonsai artists and people professionally working with plants in pots, especially in greenhouse environments.

The general recommendation for plants in greenhouses seem to be to fertilise with every watering with a more diluted solution - i.e. 1/7th dose every day instead of 1 dose weekly - and then give the plants a clear water rinsing once a week or so so flush out all the excess salt and remaining traces. This is to ensure the plants always have nutrients and will not get a "feeding shock" everytime a fertiliser is applied and that they will grow at a constant rate instead of in spurts when fertilised. These recommendations are especially aimed at plants growing in inorganic materials.

Now, these practices are not used in bonsai circles as far as I am aware. I haven´t found anything in the discussion about constant feed programs at all. And my questions then are:

Is there a reason for not using this sort of feeding program with bonsai or is it just so new in the horticulture that it hasn´t yet been adopted by the bonsai community?

Has anyone tried constant feeding? Thoughts, suggestions?

 

[Stan Kengai]

IMHO, the biggest reason you don't see this practice with liquid fertilizer in bonsai is just the sheer amount of work involved in mixing fertilizer every day for different plant needs. It's no big deal to do this in a commercial setting, especially with automatic watering systems.

That being said, you can (and a lot of people do) do this at home by using organic fertilizers or fertilizer pellets.

 

[Poink88]

I think it is used by some but most cannot put that much effort in their trees unless you have a crew, or apprentice to do it.

Concept wise, it is no different than using fertilizer cakes actually.

 

[Bill S]

One thing is the nurseries use an organic base not inorganic, so it stays in the "soil".

When looking at bonsai, by and large we are now using a mostly( some completely) inorganic, and these soils don't hold much in the way of fertilizers(see cation exchange raates) Collin Lewis has an in depth article on this.

What we are finding is that with the soils we use, in developement organic ferts are doing more for us. Many of the professionals are using the whatever brand fert, are doing it more in the developed stages I think. The stage of developement also comes into play when looking at what, how much, and what kind.

 

[coh]

I think it is used by some but most cannot put that much effort in their trees unless you have a crew, or apprentice to do it.

Actually this is not really true. One can set up a fertilizer injection system that automatically injects a specified amount of fertilizer directly into your irrigation water. I know the fancy professional systems are prohibitively expensive for most of us, but there are smaller, cheaper systems available. I'm currently experimenting with an EZ-FLO fertilizer injector and it seems to work pretty well. Caveat - I've only had it for about a month.

Concept wise, it is no different than using fertilizer cakes actually.

I agree with this and haven't heard a good reason NOT to use a lower dose of inorganic fertilizer at almost every watering (with periodic flushing with plain water). That's what I'm currently experimenting with, but it's probably too late this growing season to be able to see any benefits.

Chris

 

[Gustaf]

IMHO, the biggest reason you don't see this practice with liquid fertilizer in bonsai is just the sheer amount of work involved in mixing fertilizer every day for different plant needs. It's no big deal to do this in a commercial setting, especially with automatic watering systems.

I recently read Walter Pall's blog post about substrate, watering and fertilising and he claims to be using the same amount and type for all his trees. In that case, you really don´t need to do a lot of different mixes, although I can see your point about the amount of work. My parents' neighbour has a big 250 gallon stone jar in which it would be very possible to mix, well, 200 gallons of fertiliser mix. I really don´t have even a conceptual idea on how much water a normal sized bonsai collection uses daily, I mean I use a weak dilute on every watering for my 1 (oooh, Mr. Bigshot-bonsai-owner!) indoor tree which I bought to keep just to practice and try things on (this, thus, being one o them) and for that I mix up about a gallon and a half per week.

There are also fertiliser dispensers for your average garden hose, costs about $30 (over here at least), which saves you a lot of the trouble with mixing - especially if you use the hose for watering.

 

[rockm]

The biggest difference between nurseries and bonsaiist fertilier application is the soil we're using. Bonsai soil is a far cry from what nurseries use. Compared to nursery soil, we plant in stones that don't retain much of anything. Nurseries plant in potting soil, old pine bark, stuff that doesn't drain all that well, or at least not half as quickly as bonsai soil.

That makes intense fertilization of bonsai soil necessary. We can use a lot more because we lose a lot more through the bottom of the pot...

In the active growth months of april, May and June, I fertilize everything full strength once a week. (I don't make distinctions about brand, as long as it's a "name" brand (miracle grow, Peters, whatever...) that uses known ingredients. I back off when it gets hotter, then apply full strength up until mid-October or so....

 

[cmeg1]

You can,and I do ,use Dyna-Gro with their every watering rate.

 

[JudyB]

Cmeg thisis essentially what I do with dyna gro as well.

 

[Sekibonsai]

Hand water 2-300 trees but will be moving to auto injection system in the future.

Every other day during spring and fall growth periods.

Minimum 1/week here mid summer "dormant period"

Miracle grow, fish/seaweed emulsions, my proprietary organic fertilizer, bone and blood meal top dressings.

I, like Mr. Pall, don't vary mix much - fast draining.. mix varies more with stage of tree and performance in prior years.

 

[coh]

Would either of you (cmeg1, JudyB) be willing to elaborate a bit? How long have you been feeding this way? Have you noticed any significant improvements in the health of your trees since starting? Any problems, such as leaf burn, etc? And what rate are you using...I have dyna-gro 7-9-5 and it suggests 1/2 tsp per gallon for use at every watering on outside plants. Do you vary the amount or type of fertilizer during the growing season?

I'm planning test this approach with my trees and would like to gather as many opinions/experiences as possible, so hopefully there are others out there...

Chris

Edit to add - I see Jim snuck in there while I was typing. So to Jim - when you write "Every other day during spring and fall growth periods.", do you mean that you fertilize every other day? Even if you are watering each day? So you're basically alternating fertilizer/plain water?

 

[Poink88]

Chris,

Check with Jay (drgonzo) at IBC. I believe he uses Dyna-Gro and loves it.

 

[jk_lewis]

I fertilize with Miracle Grow or Azalea food, depending on the plant, label strength, once every two weeks from March through May, once in June, never in July (and usually never in August, but it has been cool this August so I fertilized once), once in September and October and no more until March. Been doing that for 40 years in N. Florida and now in Western NC. Trees seem happy. You really don't want to make too much of a project of fertilization. Bonsai don't need much. After all, we do NOT want them to GROW. Give them a minimal amount of NPK and trace elements and they don't really care what the delivery system is.

 

[coh]

Chris,

Check with Jay (drgonzo) at IBC. I believe he uses Dyna-Gro and loves it.

Yes, we've discussed that a number of times over there. I'm not particularly interested in a specific fertilizer, more in the experience of people who've been fertilizing more often or continuously. And Jay has only started using the dyna-gro this season, so he doesn't have long term experience with it.

Chris

 

[coh]

I fertilize with Miracle Grow or Azalea food, depending on the plant, label strength, once every two weeks from March through May, once in June, never in July (and usually never in August, but it has been cool this August so I fertilized once), once in September and October and no more until March. Been doing that for 40 years in N. Florida and now in Western NC. Trees seem happy. You really don't want to make too much of a project of fertilization. Bonsai don't need much. After all, we do NOT want them to GROW.

That'a a valid point...most of my trees are in more of a development phase (as opposed to mature bonsai) so I am looking for a bit more growth.

Give them a minimal amount of NPK and trace elements and they don't really care what the delivery system is.

Assume you mean organic vs inorganic (delivery system), and on that I am in agreement.

Chris

 

[Alain BERTRAND]

The biggest difference between nurseries and bonsaiist fertilier application is the soil we're using. Bonsai soil is a far cry from what nurseries use. Compared to nursery soil, we plant in stones that don't retain much of anything. Nurseries plant in potting soil, old pine bark, stuff that doesn't drain all that well, or at least not half as quickly as bonsai soil.

That makes intense fertilization of bonsai soil necessary.

That's true. And this is a very strong argument for feeding trees that needs strong fertilization every day instead of once every few days.

 

[dick benbow]

If you use an organic fertilizer (cakes) then you are in effect fertilizing every time you water. Because of different soil mixes within the bonsai community and different micro climates even miles apart, different folks will find different methods that work specifically for them. I think it's always helpful to find folks nearby and emulate soil and fertilizer mix on those you deem sucessful.

I like cakes for a minimal daily feed with watering and every week or two , watering with fish fertilizer. That seems to do well with my collection here in the pacific northwest.


If I've learned anything about caring for self, my koi, my bonsai if you have a regulated system of always the same thing all of the time, living things get complacent. Changing excercise programs for self, droping a day per week of feed for the Koi ( it peaks appetite) and changing fertilizer and times with the needs
(contributing to roots or shoots) seems to work best in my world. When I hear one thing or method works best in all cases I tend to get skeptical

 

[Poink88]

... if you have a regulated system of always the same thing all of the time, living things get complacent. Changing excercise programs for self, droping a day per week of feed for the Koi ( it peaks appetite) and changing fertilizer and times with the needs (contributing to roots or shoots) seems to work best in my world. When I hear one thing or method works best in all cases I tend to get skeptical

I like the analogy.

It is like choosing between, being hooked up on IV 24/7, snacking every hour, eating 3 times a day, eating only once a day, or binge eating only every 2 days...the extremes are not the same as the middle most times.

 

[cmeg1]

Would either of you (cmeg1, JudyB) be willing to elaborate a bit? How long have you been feeding this way? Have you noticed any significant improvements in the health of your trees since starting? Any problems, such as leaf burn, etc? And what rate are you using...I have dyna-gro 7-9-5 and it suggests 1/2 tsp per gallon for use at every watering on outside plants. Do you vary the amount or type of fertilizer during the growing season?

I'm planning test this approach with my trees and would like to gather as many opinions/experiences as possible, so hopefully there are others out there...

Chris

Edit to add - I see Jim snuck in there while I was typing. So to Jim - when you write "Every other day during spring and fall growth periods.", do you mean that you fertilize every other day? Even if you are watering each day? So you're basically alternating fertilizer/plain water?

The longest I have used dyna-gro at every watering on a plant is on my japanese black pine.2 years.Acually if I could use a more open soil mix I would probally look into fert cakes,but my soil is somewhat dense and it seems a rather poor delivery systym for organic cakes and liquids and would clog.I always use dyna-gro with every watering at the recommended rate on bottle.You could use the two week rate and you would notice a different kind of growth ,and look ,to your plant.My pines seem to thrive on the every watering rate of dyna-gro.My 'Pines' book sais' japanese black pine are remarkably salt tolerant,so I use it fearlessly on them(perhaps prefer it on them pines).Yes,sometimes I worry about salt build -up with my denser soil.Dyna-gro sais little or no flushing of soil is needed.The trees are so freakin' healthy with the dyna-gro that I actually stop using it all together September 1st and just flush the soil with plain water till' Spring.I just give micro-nutrients and soil fungi and beneficial bacteria then.