Another Homeless

[Gabler]

Why keep it ? Because is a shame to kill a plant just because is sick or ugly

It’s shame to kill a plant. That’s why everyone is telling you to burn this one—to save all the others.

That said, it also seems you’re anthropomorphizing it. It’s just a plant. Even vegans are okay with killing plants. Plants don’t fear death. They don’t have friends and family who grieve their loss. They just exist. Bonsai in general would be an horrific massacre if plants had feelings. Fortunately for us, they don’t. It’s okay to mutilate and kill them. No one is getting hurt. Killing a plant is only wrong insofar as wasting resources is wrong. Killing a masterpiece bonsai is wrong only insofar as destroying an original Picasso is wrong.

 

[rockm]

"Why keep it ? Because is a shame to kill a plant just because is sick or ugly.... "

Oh Good God, man get a grip. It's not a dog. It's not cow, or a kitty, or a hamster. It's a diseased pine that is going south pretty quickly. That heavy bug infestation is a sure sign the tree is pretty weak and getting weaker. Bug infestations like that are RARELY the cause of a plant's death. They are a SYMPTOM of a tree that's been weakened by something else. That underlying problem, which likely still exists, poses a danger to OTHER plants in your collection, yard, or whatever.

 

[penumbra]

If I am ever that sick, don't try to save me .... put me down.

 

[penumbra]

I think you want to save this plant because everyone is telling you not to. We are not the enemy.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

If I am ever that sick, don't try to save me .... put me down.

I will powerwash you with warm water, dust you down in antibiotics and put you in a farmers field, and you're gonna like it!

All jokes aside, if Max wants to save this tree, I'm okay with that. I don't think the tree is worth it, especially with so many mugo filled mountains around.. But to each his own.
I have some questionable stock myself that nobody would deem worthy of any time. But thankfully, it's my time and not anyone else's.

 

[BrightsideB]

This isn’t a good practice. Now it’s posing a threat to what is around. Conifers also show signs of death later than a deciduous. It may be dead. It’s obviously your choice but for a $25 tree it seems like it is a big gamble. More then the tree actually pulling through.

 

[Gabler]

I will powerwash you with warm water, dust you down in antibiotics and put you in a farmers field, and you're gonna like it!

All jokes aside, if Max wants to save this tree, I'm okay with that. I don't think the tree is worth it, especially with so many mugo filled mountains around.. But to each his own.
I have some questionable stock myself that nobody would deem worthy of any time. But thankfully, it's my time and not anyone else's.

I don’t think the concern was whether this stock is worth it. I think the question is whether this stock is worth the risk to every other tree in the collection, not to mention neighbors’ trees.

 

[bonsai-max]

That said, it also seems you’re anthropomorphizing it. It’s just a plant. Even vegans are okay with killing plants. Plants don’t fear death. They don’t have friends and family who grieve their loss. They just exist. Bonsai in general would be an horrific massacre if plants had feelings. Fortunately for us, they don’t. It’s okay to mutilate and kill them. No one is getting hurt. Killing a plant is only wrong insofar as wasting resources is wrong. Killing a masterpiece bonsai is wrong only insofar as destroying an original Picasso is wrong.

Oh Good God, man get a grip. It's not a dog. It's not cow, or a kitty, or a hamster. It's a diseased pine that is going south pretty quickly. That heavy bug infestation is a sure sign the tree is pretty weak and getting weaker. Bug infestations like that are RARELY the cause of a plant's death. They are a SYMPTOM of a tree that's been weakened by something else. That underlying problem, which likely still exists, poses a danger to OTHER plants in your collection, yard, or whatever.

He will come to pick you one by one ahahahahah



We will see, I am pretty confident that will be ok. I have had such infestation in other tree is the past ( cottony mealybug) the black was the honeydew that they produce and is food for ant. I have cherry tree and orange tree in my garden and every year they are full of bugs of this kind or the black one also an apple tree. I don't use any chemical on them and they are still alive so my bonsai that stay not so far.
The dry branch can be a sign of something but I am not sure, the time will tell.

This isn’t a good practice. Now it’s posing a threat to what is around. Conifers also show signs of death later than a deciduous. It may be dead. It’s obviously your choice but for a $25 tree it seems like it is a big gamble. More then the tree actually pulling through.

Do you live in a steril place ? I live in open nature, near to a forest a surrounded of fruit tree from a Bio farm. It's all biological so basically all their plants are full of bugs during the spring and summer ( the ant brings the black bugs) and some of them are sick with fungus. Thrust me this small pine is the last of my problem.....

I will keep you informed....

 

[BrightsideB]

He will come to pick you one by one ahahahahah

View attachment 487347

We will see, I am pretty confident that will be ok. I have had such infestation in other tree is the past ( cottony mealybug) the black was the honeydew that they produce and is food for ant. I have cherry tree and orange tree in my garden and every year they are full of bugs of this kind or the black one also an apple tree. I don't use any chemical on them and they are still alive so my bonsai that stay not so far.
The dry branch can be a sign of something but I am not sure, the time will tell.


Do you live in a steril place ? I live in open nature, near to a forest a surrounded of fruit tree from a Bio farm. It's all biological so basically all their plants are full of bugs during the spring and summer ( the ant brings the black bugs) and some of them are sick with fungus. Thrust me this small pine is the last of my problem.....

I will keep you informed....

I actually do live in a sterile place surrounded by plexiglass with lots of Clorox and do not know what bugs do. I don’t know why I am here.

 

[Cajunrider]

If I am ever that sick, don't try to save me .... put me down.

Nah nah you are too valuable to us.
You've got pots to do before you sleep.

 

[Cajunrider]

He will come to pick you one by one ahahahahah

View attachment 487347

We will see, I am pretty confident that will be ok. I have had such infestation in other tree is the past ( cottony mealybug) the black was the honeydew that they produce and is food for ant. I have cherry tree and orange tree in my garden and every year they are full of bugs of this kind or the black one also an apple tree. I don't use any chemical on them and they are still alive so my bonsai that stay not so far.
The dry branch can be a sign of something but I am not sure, the time will tell.


Do you live in a steril place ? I live in open nature, near to a forest a surrounded of fruit tree from a Bio farm. It's all biological so basically all their plants are full of bugs during the spring and summer ( the ant brings the black bugs) and some of them are sick with fungus. Thrust me this small pine is the last of my problem.....

I will keep you informed....

I think you like the challenge. I want to see progress of the tree.

 

[bonsai-max]

Hi there, will be a long way and still not sure about the recovery but a lot is moving here ......
After 2 treatment, no more bugs and not black.
Someone has info about trunk fusion with pines ? Is that possible ?

 

[AJL]

Why keep it ? Because is a shame to kill a plant just because is sick or ugly.... If she will recover I will plant in the forest near here or put in some garden corner.
In any case, I have the same idea of Trigo, treated with professional product yesterday both anti bugs anti fungus,very strong, this morning the white bugs was all dead an I have power washed the plant with 25 c° water and now is clean without the black part.
I cut all the brown and dead parts and burned. Now the plant is at the end of the farmer field in quarantine. 10 days and I will treat again her....
Now its fresh and sunny/cloudy next week will rain, put osmocote on it and in ten days I will start with 20 20 20
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Its never going to make a bonsai because of its poor form and its a cultivar of Pinus not a native to the area so what are you going to achieve by ignoring good advice from experienced growers here, putting local forest at risk from introduced pathogens?

 

[Gabler]

Hi there, will be a long way and still not sure about the recovery but a lot is moving here ......
After 2 treatment, no more bugs and not black.
Someone has info about trunk fusion with pines ? Is that possible ?


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View attachment 490290

I see you managed to evade complete botanical carnage.

 

[nuttiest]

I used to see this when I was landscaping it could happen to a shrub pretty fast, like within six months. The white bug causes the black stuff and if that is the only problem it will recover. I liked to use an organophosphate with a large plastic bag over for 2 days on heavily infested plants, the fumes killed everything.
Very likely this was up against a house in too much shade + too much water and little air circulation. That is what the bug likes.
As said already it can spread easily so when you find a free tree already in a bag...
do your treatment and leave it on backlot!

 

[bonsai-max]

Its never going to make a bonsai because of its poor form and its a cultivar of Pinus not a native to the area so what are you going to achieve by ignoring good advice from experienced growers here, putting local forest at risk from introduced pathogens?

It's a Mugo, here Mugo are everywhere in the forests. Probably I will keep in my garden as a decorative bush. Pathogens are probably gone, two treatment of the professional antifungal, plus a second dose at the end of the summer and they will gone for sure ( or the plant will be dead) .....

 

[MaciekA]

Pines get sick because of shitty horticulture in the soil, lack of sun, and overwork/mistreatment, not because there merely exists a pathogen nearby. The atmosphere and soil in rural settings is an absolute soup of pathogens, so if the fear is that this tree will sicken every tree in the area, even across a large field on OP's property, then we're sort of cynically assuming that @bonsai-max sucks at horticulture and can never get better at it. But what if we weren't so fatalistic? Getting good at pine horticulture is going to be a minimum requirement for continuing in pine bonsai at all, you can't muscle your way through this with spraying and praying.

@bonsai-max , pines are happy or become more happy, whether currently sick or not, when pine horticulture is observed religiously, i.e:

• The root system is in pumice or a similar particle
• The root system breathes air and is allowed to dry out at the edges of the soil volume between waterings.
• The root system is confined by a pot not much bigger than the root system's current volume.
• The soil is not composed of heterogenous distribution of soil types (hard to avoid in yamadori/yard finds but eventually, get to this state ASAP)
• The canopy is kept in full direct sun, full means full, direct means direct. The brighter the better
• The pine is allowed to grow long, strong, bushy surplus growth, and that surplus growth is kept long enough to then return a net-positive investment back to the rest of the tree in the form of stored sugars. Again and again, year after year
• The soil surface is kept diligently clean of fine particles, weeds, mosses, algae, liverwort + other worts

Structurally, IMO at the very least before looking closer, you have a foresty clump if not necessarily a singular tree. I would set aside ideas about trunk fusion and develop it as a clump, for better or worse.

Side note, yes, OP is in mugo-native lands so that slaps down the non-native argument, but that's irrelevant anyway, because the only thing that actually matters (assuming temperate climate) is pine horticulture as stated above. Mugo isn't native in Oregon either, and Oregon really doesn't resemble Switzerland at all. And yet, literally hundreds of thousands of very healthy mugos (possibly millions of them) are grown in Oregon every year and shipped all over the US and Canada. Satisfy the horticultural contracts demanded by the pine and nothing else matters.

 

[Gabler]

Pines get sick because of shitty horticulture in the soil, lack of sun, and overwork/mistreatment, not because there merely exists a pathogen nearby. The atmosphere and soil in rural settings is an absolute soup of pathogens, so if the fear is that this tree will sicken every tree in the area, even across a large field on OP's property, then we're sort of cynically assuming that @bonsai-max sucks at horticulture and can never get better at it. But what if we weren't so fatalistic? Getting good at pine horticulture is going to be a minimum requirement for continuing in pine bonsai at all, you can't muscle your way through this with spraying and praying.

@bonsai-max , pines are happy or become more happy, whether currently sick or not, when pine horticulture is observed religiously, i.e:

• The root system is in pumice or a similar particle
• The root system breathes air and is allowed to dry out at the edges of the soil volume between waterings.
• The root system is confined by a pot not much bigger than the root system's current volume.
• The soil is not composed of heterogenous distribution of soil types (hard to avoid in yamadori/yard finds but eventually, get to this state ASAP)
• The canopy is kept in full direct sun, full means full, direct means direct. The brighter the better
• The pine is allowed to grow long, strong, bushy surplus growth, and that surplus growth is kept long enough to then return a net-positive investment back to the rest of the tree in the form of stored sugars. Again and again, year after year
• The soil surface is kept diligently clean of fine particles, weeds, mosses, algae, liverwort + other worts

Structurally, IMO at the very least before looking closer, you have a foresty clump if not necessarily a singular tree. I would set aside ideas about trunk fusion and develop it as a clump, for better or worse.

Side note, yes, OP is in mugo-native lands so that slaps down the non-native argument, but that's irrelevant anyway, because the only thing that actually matters (assuming temperate climate) is pine horticulture as stated above. Mugo isn't native in Oregon either, and Oregon really doesn't resemble Switzerland at all. And yet, literally hundreds of thousands of very healthy mugos (possibly millions of them) are grown in Oregon every year and shipped all over the US and Canada. Satisfy the horticultural contracts demanded by the pine and nothing else matters.

I was under the impression that even with overall good health, pathogens can be transmitted if the load is enough to overpower an organism’s immune functions. That is to say, normally, there’s small amounts of pathogens all around us and our plants at all times. If we’re weakened or unhealthy, that lowers the threshold for getting sick—hence your emphasis on good pine horticulture to keep up those barriers against plant diseases. However—and this is my non-expert impression—even a healthy organism can get sick if exposed to a large load of pathogens. Putting a very sick tree in the vicinity of healthy trees exposes the healthy trees to a larger-than-normal load of pathogens, which can overwhelm the plants’ immune functions.

 

[bonsai-max]

I used to see this when I was landscaping it could happen to a shrub pretty fast, like within six months. The white bug causes the black stuff and if that is the only problem it will recover. I liked to use an organophosphate with a large plastic bag over for 2 days on heavily infested plants, the fumes killed everything.
Very likely this was up against a house in too much shade + too much water and little air circulation. That is what the bug likes.
As said already it can spread easily so when you find a free tree already in a bag...
do your treatment and leave it on backlot!

Exactly

Pines get sick because of shitty horticulture in the soil, lack of sun, and overwork/mistreatment, not because there merely exists a pathogen nearby. The atmosphere and soil in rural settings is an absolute soup of pathogens, so if the fear is that this tree will sicken every tree in the area, even across a large field on OP's property, then we're sort of cynically assuming that @bonsai-max sucks at horticulture and can never get better at it. But what if we weren't so fatalistic? Getting good at pine horticulture is going to be a minimum requirement for continuing in pine bonsai at all, you can't muscle your way through this with spraying and praying.

@bonsai-max , pines are happy or become more happy, whether currently sick or not, when pine horticulture is observed religiously, i.e:

• The root system is in pumice or a similar particle
• The root system breathes air and is allowed to dry out at the edges of the soil volume between waterings.
• The root system is confined by a pot not much bigger than the root system's current volume.
• The soil is not composed of heterogenous distribution of soil types (hard to avoid in yamadori/yard finds but eventually, get to this state ASAP)
• The canopy is kept in full direct sun, full means full, direct means direct. The brighter the better
• The pine is allowed to grow long, strong, bushy surplus growth, and that surplus growth is kept long enough to then return a net-positive investment back to the rest of the tree in the form of stored sugars. Again and again, year after year
• The soil surface is kept diligently clean of fine particles, weeds, mosses, algae, liverwort + other worts

Structurally, IMO at the very least before looking closer, you have a foresty clump if not necessarily a singular tree. I would set aside ideas about trunk fusion and develop it as a clump, for better or worse.

Side note, yes, OP is in mugo-native lands so that slaps down the non-native argument, but that's irrelevant anyway, because the only thing that actually matters (assuming temperate climate) is pine horticulture as stated above. Mugo isn't native in Oregon either, and Oregon really doesn't resemble Switzerland at all. And yet, literally hundreds of thousands of very healthy mugos (possibly millions of them) are grown in Oregon every year and shipped all over the US and Canada. Satisfy the horticultural contracts demanded by the pine and nothing else matters.

Bingo.... Yes now the tree is in 100% pomice except for the root ball in that I have opened a cleaned a little to avoid extra stress, and take full sun sud exposure sun from 9 to 18 when will be more hot I will bring in another place with some shadow.
In 2 years I will reduce the pot and the old soil
No problem with the water, I can manage a pine, I am not a master of course but can manage the basis
You gave me a really nice input, and I will go in that direction..... We will see.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Hi there, will be a long way and still not sure about the recovery but a lot is moving here ......
After 2 treatment, no more bugs and not black.
Someone has info about trunk fusion with pines ? Is that possible ?


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View attachment 490290

Vindication! Congrats