Another soil topic...!

fredman

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When is a soil considered organic enough to use organic fertilisers? Does organic ferts still work in a non organic soil?
I use 1.1.1 parts composted pine bark, pumice and crushed granite. Do I consider it organic or "partly organic"?


I have good access to humates in liquid and powder form. Definitely saw the difference it makes in the above mix. I want to try it this year in some plants planted in pure pumice. Does anybody know if it will have the same effect?
 

Djtommy

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Why do you think you need organic soil to use organic fertilizer?
If you have an inorganic soil its actually good to use an organic fertilizer,
You should read those other soil threads once
 

sorce

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I actually consider them used the other way.
Organic soil, chemical fert.
Inorganic soil, organic fert.

I read a bumper sticker that read
"Don't put shit in Turface!"

Fish emulsion is the shittiest product I use for organic fert in Oil Dry.
It's more like diarrhea.

@Smoke wrote once about the Cation exchange Capacity of different substrate materials. Thread? Link?

That information, along with the knowledge of what form your NPK is in, as in how/when the plant can use it, is what I base my fert on.

You are on BSG? There's a genious feller there named Paul wrote a killer article about how plants use different types of NPK at different temperatures and so on.
Real nerd stuff! A great read!

Sorce
 

Stickroot

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I actually consider them used the other way.
Organic soil, chemical fert.
Inorganic soil, organic fert.

I read a bumper sticker that read
"Don't put shit in Turface!"

Fish emulsion is the shittiest product I use for organic fert in Oil Dry.
It's more like diarrhea.

@Smoke wrote once about the Cation exchange Capacity of different substrate materials. Thread? Link?

That information, along with the knowledge of what form your NPK is in, as in how/when the plant can use it, is what I base my fert on.

You are on BSG? There's a genious feller there named Paul wrote a killer article about how plants use different types of NPK at different temperatures and so on.
Real nerd stuff! A great read!

Sorce
I have noticed best results switching each feeding with organic and chemical ferts, but everyone is diff.
Experimenting with control groups will get you the best answers.
 

Stickroot

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image.jpg image.jpg I completed my first Cascade pot last night!
I am so happy with it, I'm just going to put a tree in it, no dirt
 

qwade

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When is a soil considered organic enough to use organic fertilisers? Does organic ferts still work in a non organic soil?
I use 1.1.1 parts composted pine bark, pumice and crushed granite. Do I consider it organic or "partly organic"?
Your soil, containing pine bark is organic. Liquid humates added to any soil should work. The breakdown of nutrients are Broken down and readily available to the plant. The concern I would have would be with an organic that needs to be broken down by microbes to be readily available for the plant to uptake. Is this process available in an inorganic substrate.? At best over time, since an organic is added, maybe the organism needed become present because of the added organic. I find it hard to believe that these necessary microbes, needed for breakdown, are present, day one, in an inorganic substrate.

Full disclosure --- I have been unable to back this up with solid scientific evidence, but am still researching. Just my thoughts
 

Stickroot

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Your soil, containing pine bark is organic. Liquid humates added to any soil should work. The breakdown of nutrients are Broken down and readily available to the plant. The concern I would have would be with an organic that needs to be broken down by microbes to be readily available for the plant to uptake. Is this process available in an inorganic substrate.? At best over time, since an organic is added, maybe the organism needed become present because of the added organic. I find it hard to believe that these necessary microbes, needed for breakdown, are present, day one, in an inorganic substrate.

Full disclosure --- I have been unable to back this up with solid scientific evidence, but am still researching. Just my thoughts
Is Micorrhizae the link???
 

qwade

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Is Micorrhizae the link???
That fungi is important for root function. Again readily available in organic substrate.. In inorganic who knows. ---- There seems to be healthy trees on this site, growing in inorganic soil , fed by purely organics. I've read one member who uses strictly inorganic substrates and uses strictly organic cakes and fish emulsions on his trees. The trees seem to be healthy. So the discussion will continue. Some do not like the soil or ferts threads. They like to post negative remarks on the subject. (Note lancemac0 above). I see no reason for these comments. If you don't like the subject, don't bother to read the thread. Why waste your energy posting some useless statement ??? As I said before, Soil and ferts are an important an evolving subject. Especially in container culture. Please post your experiences, research, etc.
 

Stickroot

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That fungi is important for root function. Again readily available in organic substrate.. In inorganic who knows. ---- There seems to be healthy trees on this site, growing in inorganic soil , fed by purely organics. I've read one member who uses strictly inorganic substrates and uses strictly organic cakes and fish emulsions on his trees. The trees seem to be healthy. So the discussion will continue. Some do not like the soil or ferts threads. They like to post negative remarks on the subject. (Note lancemac0 above). I see no reason for these comments. If you don't like the subject, don't bother to read the thread. Why waste your energy posting some useless statement ??? As I said before, Soil and ferts are an important an evolving subject. Especially in container culture. Please post your experiences, research, etc.
I have tried lots of different methods of growing and found that you can grow anything in everything with proper care, some ways you water more, some ways you feed more. Comes down to what works best for the grower.
 

M. Frary

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I use inorganic substrate with inorganic fertilizer. No pine bark,no poop.
Check out Walter Pall's watering and fertilizing method.
 

fredman

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Ouch this not what I expected. I left in a big hurry for the weekend on Friday and just returned. I only now saw that I did the opposite that I intended to do. The topic heading I wanted to put was.... "NOT another soil topic...!" Why I did not put in the "NOT" I can only put down to my Friday rush, and not double checking it....... I know how trigger happy some people are.....:rolleyes:
Well on the upside there is always a few patient and friendly ones that makes a difference.
Thanks You to the few ;)
I'm bushed and off to bed now. Qwade if you don't mind I will continue tomorrow. Find what you say very interesting and along my line of thinking....!
 

M. Frary

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No need for thanks. We're all here to help.
 

sorce

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Thanks You to the few ;)
Except for the completely random cascade pot, these are all very useful comments. Lance's too, as it is a sign of good things to come!

Speaking of cascade pots @Stickroot , that is an old style pot that you Probly won't be able to sell anyway since that's all you do here trying to off your "perfect soil" and pretty tools.

I'm joking of course! You support overly well, I want that HTR pot!

You win the "most random" post award for 2015! You have to supply the prize, a set of tools and a bag of soil!

Sorce
 

leatherback

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I completed my first Cascade pot last night!
I like how you have made one wall thicker than the others. It that meant to counter-balancer the weight of the tree?

As for the organic/inorganic debate: The plant that is potted in an inorganic substrate is not sterile; It will have colonies of beneficial bacteria/fungi which will assist in breaking down any organic ferts. used. With time, the whole pot will be colonized. And if you re-use your substrate they will bring these beneficial microbes with them. It is one of the reasons why I prefer to use long-lasting inorganic media for growing: I dry and sift after repotting, and use it in the next repot phase; Of course, always from healthy trees; Sick trees with root issues: I toss the old soil.
 

wireme

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Your soil, containing pine bark is organic. Liquid humates added to any soil should work. The breakdown of nutrients are Broken down and readily available to the plant. The concern I would have would be with an organic that needs to be broken down by microbes to be readily available for the plant to uptake. Is this process available in an inorganic substrate.? At best over time, since an organic is added, maybe the organism needed become present because of the added organic. I find it hard to believe that these necessary microbes, needed for breakdown, are present, day one, in an inorganic substrate.

Full disclosure --- I have been unable to back this up with solid scientific evidence, but am still researching. Just my thoughts
I can understand that line of thinking but I think the needed organisms can live happily in an inorganic substrate provided they have a food source, namely organic ferts. My soils range from 70- 100% inorganic and I fertilize with soil organisms in mind as much as the plants in the pot. Humates, liquid kelp, marine algae, liquid carbs are all great fungal foods and I include those sometimes in an effort to keep beneficial myc and other microbes happy. There is a point at which microbes can't convert the ferts when temps are to cold and they are no longer active. My own line of thinking is that at that point the plants needs are also reduced but many people switch to chemical ferts during those times. I worry a bit that chemical ferts can harm the microbial populations that I try to maintain so I stick to organic year round. I am a believer in the host defense mechanisms of beneficial fungi etc so I like to try to maintain a healthy bioactive substrate.
I can't say at all if its really working, I've always been happy with the apparent health of my trees, never use fungicides of any kind and only mild insecticidal soap very rarely so far. Growth rates I have to admit seem lacking sometimes.
 

jk_lewis

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As for the organic/inorganic debate: The plant that is potted in an inorganic substrate is not sterile; It will have colonies of beneficial bacteria/fungi which will assist in breaking down any organic ferts. used. With time, the whole pot will be colonized. And if you re-use your substrate they will bring these beneficial microbes with them. It is one of the reasons why I prefer to use long-lasting inorganic media for growing: I dry and sift after repotting, and use it in the next repot phase; Of course, always from healthy trees; Sick trees with root issues: I toss the old soil.
This is correct. Even if you have washed roots apparently clean of soil, (short of fatal sterilization) they will take any needful bacteria with them into their new soil.

As for the organic/inorganic thing, I've been told by hort people whose opinions I respect that if you use mostly inorganic soil you probably should use organic fertilizer -- that the organic molecules ADsorb to the inorganic soil, rather than passing straight thru like inorganic fertilizer would. Note the difference between ADsorb and ABsorb.
 

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